Posted on 01/15/2012 1:03:23 PM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
So it is a works based salvation?
Apparently it’s not.
If you are saved, then you sin, then you are no longer saved anymore and you are condemned to hell.
Ergo, once saved, always saved is a myth.
So you would say that Christ’s sacrifice, unlike the sacrifices in the Old Testament Temple, is not the atonement for sins? You would also say that Christ was not the “perfect, once for all” sacrifice but that men have to finish what He started?
That’s what seems to be the case here.
I’m sure you can see my concern.
If you are saved, then how can your sins ever make you unsaved again?
Nah, a lame confession, a lame repentence does not help. As Jesus said — those who say “Lord, Lord” without true repentence will not be saved. It’s the same about “taking Jesus as your buddy or personal savior” — He’s the savior of the World! One needs to truly repent, believe, be baptised, endure to the end etc.
The atonement for sins is/was Christ's one-time sacrifice, the perfect once-and-for-all sacrifice that we participate in, in each Eucharistic celebration (as the Prophet Micah spoke about the prayers being all the time, across the world)
His Salvation saves us in the continuous sanctification.
it's like (a bad analogy) we get on a bus and someone before us has paid for us already. We just have to accept this payment. Of course it's a bad analogy as we ourselves can't pay for the ticket no matter what we do. AND, it's not just "oh, he paid, now let me do what I like" but as Jesus said Repent, believe, be baptised, eat of My body and blood and endure to the end"/
It’s interesting that Catholics always bring up that line. Not once have they ever been able to show that anyone has ever said that. No one I have ever known has said that. I can assure you that no one who is saved with the indwelling of Christ would ever utter those words or think that anyone would who professes faith in Him.
Look at what Jesus said to the Pharisees.
John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
He wasn’t commending them in that passage. That was just after He said to the woman caught in adultery “Neither do I condemn thee”. That comment about “ye judge after the flesh” is something that Catholics should ponder and study. It means something. The focus on flesh is rather pervasive in the RCC. It’s not what Jesus and the apostles taught.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
“not in the flesh”? Those who are saved are not in the flesh? What does that mean to a Catholic who focuses so much on the flesh? Constantly they tell us it’s what is done “in the flesh” that is important yet both Jesus and Paul have told us it’s not “in the flesh” that we live or judge. How is that to be understood? Paul again tells us.
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
It’s Christ in us that gives us the ability and understanding of what “in the Spirit” means. It’s no longer we who live but Christ lives in us.
Paul says, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” Galatians 2:20
Notice it says by the faith of Christ. Not >u>my faith in Christ. It’s not our faith we rely on, it’s Christ’s faith which we were promised would sustain us. It’s not our righteousness we rely on which Catholics constantly try to impose.
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:9
It’s the faith of Christ in us that imparts righteousness to us and not the following of the law of the flesh that Catholics insist is what is needed for salvation. The RCC teaches that it’s by living according to the laws of the flesh that is needed for salvation. True believers are told that it’s Christ Jesus living in us that gives us that righteousness, sanctification and redemption.
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31
It’s God who gets the glory for it is God who works through us and not we who follow some law of the flesh. Now if each of us who truly have accepted Jesus as our savior possess the righteousness of Christ would you please tell me who has more righteousness then Christ?
So if it’s Christ who lives in us and it’s Christ’s righteousness we have been given why would we even want or think to “do anything we want” as Catholics accuse us of? If it’s “not I who live but Christ in me” how can you assume that Christ would cause us to believe we can “do what I like” as you said? Christ told us that we would have the law written in our heart and He told us we would have His Spirit living within us to give us the faith to live by that law “in the Spirit”. “it is not I who lives but Christ who lives in me”.
If Catholics want to live “in the flesh” and think they can do it by their own strength the result will be disappointing to say the least. Accusing others of thinking that if they are saved they can “do anything they want” indicates a lack of knowledge of what “Christ in us” means.
How ironic that we're accused of being followers of Paul and yet Catholics completely ignore what Paul taught about living in sin.
Romans 6 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations.For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Methinks that those who think that just because we are free in Christ that it means that we think we have a license to sin, are projecting.
A lot.
They don’t or can’t understand that we don’t indulge in the flesh because we’re free in Christ and our salvation is assured, don’t understand because that is what they’d do (indulge in wanton sin) if they were in the place of thinking that they were free.
They need the outward restraint to keep them from sinning because they don’t have the inward restraint.
Keeps them focused on everyone but the man in the mirror and God's Word to that man...
Keeps them focused on everyone but the man in the mirror and God's Word to that man...
The trouble is when churches encourage gambling with Bingo games and sponsored group trips to casinos. You have to ask if perhaps this wasn't in come way encouraged by the church "winking" at gambling and not providing the proper supervision all those years.
Hold on there, hoss. Since when do "Protestants figure they can do as they please because all sins were forgiven..."??? In the rush to criticize those not Catholic, did you forget that this is NOT what Protestants believe? We certainly DO believe, as Scripture teaches, that "if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (I John 1:9) No true born again, saved by the blood of Christ, redeemed Christian thinks getting saved is a "license to sin". What we DO know - again from Scripture - is that we are not saved by righteous acts of our own but by the grace of God. We are NOT saved because we deserve to be by our own merit, but because God is his mercy has redeemed us from the debt of sin - which is DEATH.
People don't get saved because they are good people. No one is good enough nor can ever be good enough. No one can merit eternal life because even one little sin is payable by eternal separation from God - HELL. But God loved us so much that he gave us his only begotten son, who died for us, so that, through him, he gives to us eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ "to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us." (Eph. 1:6-8)
So, rather than falsely accuse non-Catholic Christians of "thinking we can do as we please", why not admit what really separates us? We are saved NOT by righteous deeds which we have done, but by the mercy and grace of God. We live lives that honor and glorify God not so that we may one day be saved, but because we are saved. Part of that living holy lives entails admission of wrongs, confession, repentance and reconciliation. If we have wronged another, we are told to go to that person and confess our sin and ask for their forgiveness. We should also make restitution if possible, but we can never "atone" for our sins. Only Christ and his blood makes atonement for our sins. The difference is we can know right now we have eternal life because we have received Christ.
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." (I John 5:11-13)
That is quite insightful!
yeah,right....that's it (not)
What inward restraint do Catholics have to keep them from sinning?
WOW, I've NEVER been called thin skinned before...I'm as tough as nails and cannot be embarrassed by anyone. That having been said, you cannot renounce your baptism and luckily for you, the fact that you might deny Christ means nothing. He came to save all mankind and I would assume that includes you...What you do with your life is, of course, strictly up to you but because you are commenting on this thread, I figure that you have at least some interest in salvation. Your baptism was not imposed on you, it was a priceless gift to you...say thanks
That's no different than the criticism lobbed at Protestants that all our sins are forgiven, even the ones we haven't repented of.
Jesus wouldn't throw someone into hell for stealing?
So, Catholics can do what they want and figure that stealing isn't a big deal for Jesus and they're good to go?
James 2:10-11 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Protestants don't put sin on a sliding scale of seriousness. Sin is sin, be it a lie or murder.
So for a Catholic to criticize a Protestant over taking sin lightly, this is extremely hypocritical. If Jesus won't send someone to hell for stealing, then Catholics have no reason to not steal. They can steal with impunity because it doesn't affect their salvation.
That's taking sin lightly; thinking that some sin of some kind is not worthy of hell.
However, Catholics believe that we still have some personal responsibility to atone for our sins and strive to eliminate further sins from our lives.
Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
What part of this verse is so hard to understand? Personal responsibility to eliminate sin from our life? It can't happen because we can't do it. If we die for our own sin, we have just paid the wages due for it and it does not redeem us. Penance, works, sacraments, nothing, can obtain forgiveness except the shedding of righteous blood.
Christ didn't die to finish up what we could do on our own. He died to do what we couldn't do on our own, and that is gain forgiveness for the least sin in our lives.
If works could do it, Christ died for nothing.
If Christ's blood can take care of some of our sins, it can take care of all of them.
OH?
So *Once saved, always saved* (OSAS) is mocked and derided, but *Once Catholic, always Catholic* (OCAC) isn't?
So God cannot seal us until the day of redemption with the Holy Spirit, but the Catholic church can seal us into Catholicism forever with water baptism?
So *Once Catholic, always Catholic* can hold even if we *deny Christ*, but the main argument against OSAS is that we can't claim that because we don't know if we're ever going to deny Christ at some unknown date in the future?
So the Catholic church can do what God Himself cannot do, leave an indelible mark or seal on someone's soul and spirit?
What CHUTZPAH!!!!
Your baptism was not imposed on you, it was a priceless gift to you...say thanks
On the contrary, water baptism does nothing for the soul
You want to talk gift? This is what God has to say....
Ephesians 2:4-10 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
I've heard this before.
It is why doing the work of God is so important.So that our minds begin to be transformed...thus...2 Timothy 1:7 - For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
No-one who has been GIVEN a sound mind will then deny the very person who gave it to them.It would be proof they never took hold of this gift to begin with.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.