Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

To: BroJoeK
I'm certain you know your history well enough to realize that Nazis' systematic persecutions of Jews -- as Jews and for no other reason -- had been going on since 1933, with each new step ratcheting up the horrors. Outright murders of Jews began with the invasion of Poland in 1939.

As did outright murder of many other classes of people which created a general noise level making it difficult to concentrate on the cries of any single group. Furthermore, we speak now of post-Christian Europe but in the 1920's Germany had already reached that point.

It is precisely this systematic persecution of Jews, as Jews, about which all churches remained publicly silent.

For starters, what about the Papal encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge read aloud in every German Catholic church on Palm Sunday 1937?

Indeed, the Pope did not even speak openly about the murder of thousands of Catholic clergy, much less about Einsatzgruppen shootings of hundreds of thousands of east European Jews.

At this point in 1941, I see little chance for word of what was happening in the East to make it back to the Vatican. About the only soldiers returning from the eastern front were bandaged up and missing various appendages.

Did the Pope know? How could he not know, since every German military unit had chaplains at some level?

The eastern front was a gigantic meat grinder. Men went off to the east never to be seen again. The cries of individual groups in the east were muffled by the noise of that gigantic meat grinder.

Yes, the Pope would have reports of what was happening in the East but he was also dealing a general persecution of the church across Europe. Then there was the matter of Asian Catholics suffering at the hands of the Japanese not to mention the Chinese communists. All this coming on the heels of the great suffering of the church at the hands of the Bolsheviks. Furthermore, when surrounded by your oppressor as the Vatican was, you walk a tightrope.

Greek famine: 300,000 estimated total deaths. I didn't remember it, so pretty good bet most others also don't. The starvation of 300,000 Greeks represented about 4% of Greece's 7.4 million total population.

Almost all of the Greek starvation occurred during the winter of 1941-1942. Had the allied blockade not been lifted and you extrapolate the numbers forward to the end of occupation in 1944. Millions of Greeks would have perished. My original comment about Greeks arguably suffering worse than Jews at this point in time (Dec 1941) was based on my personal belief that death by a bullet which is largely how the Einsatzgruppen were carrying out their murders in the east was preferable to a slow death by starvation which was happening in Greece.

Indeed, you have to wonder if the real problem wasn't they all truly "didn't know", or if our guys in the West just didn't want to learn about it? Today it's impossible to imagine that such information would not somehow leak out, but there you have it.

Consider the slaughter in Cambodia. There were plenty of reports about what was happening at the hands of the Communists but the leftist media chose to ignore them.

I'll say it again: let's not pretend that churches routinely reported or decried Nazi atrocities against Jews, when in fact, they almost never did. Indeed, they barely mentioned publicly Nazi atrocities against their own clergy.

Or is it a matter of like the slaughter in Cambodia (and anywhere Communists took over), western media who are enamored with socialism received reports but deemed them non-newsworthy?

17 posted on 12/16/2011 10:32:14 AM PST by fso301
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies ]


To: fso301
fs301: "As did outright murder of many other classes of people which created a general noise level making it difficult to concentrate on the cries of any single group."

And you can quote examples of church leaders explicit public condemnations of any of those atrocities?
In fact, the Church did not speak openly about the murders of thousands of its own clergy, much less millions of others.

fso301: "For starters, what about the Papal encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge read aloud in every German Catholic church on Palm Sunday 1937?"

And you can quote for us sections of Mit Brennender Sorge which condemn specifically the persecution and murder of Jews?
Of course not, not in 1937.
But what about years later, during the Holocaust proper?

fso301: "At this point in 1941, I see little chance for word of what was happening in the East to make it back to the Vatican."

It's impossible to believe the Vatican did not know of Catholic clergy including bishops being murdered, or take note of the fact their deaths happened in camps set up to hold or exterminate Jews.
How much of this was going on in late 1941?
I don't know, but certainly it was well under way by this time, and not all of it could be kept secret.

fso301: "Yes, the Pope would have reports of what was happening in the East but he was also dealing a general persecution of the church across Europe."

The Pope had no difficulty publicly identifying and condemning persecutions of Christians in Soviet Russia -- indeed the Church excommunicated Communists, but not Nazis, not even Hitler.

fso301: "All this coming on the heels of the great suffering of the church at the hands of the Bolsheviks."

The Church suffered a thousand times more in Poland under Nazis than it ever did in Russia under Stalin -- for obvious reasons, since there were few Russian Catholics to begin with.

fso301: "Furthermore, when surrounded by your oppressor as the Vatican was, you walk a tightrope."

And that is the core of the problem.
The Nazi threat was: the Pope must stay silent, or the numbers murdered would be far more.

Of course, I understand that -- it is what it is.
I'm only saying: let's not pretend that the Pope or any other church leader spoke specifically and publicly about the Nazi horrors.

18 posted on 12/17/2011 6:20:41 AM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson