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To: BroJoeK
Neither article says anything about atrocities against Jews, or anyone else for that matter -- unless you count the words "intensive Nazi measures" as adequate to describe the beginnings of the Holocaust.

The Final Solution did not begin until 1942. At this point in time, the Greek famine was at it's peak and Greeks were suffering arguably worse than Jews but how much do you hear about mass starvation in Greece during the winter famine of 41-42? How many people even know about the Greek famine?

Sure, one or two articles with very vague references to something the Nazis were doing -- nothing even remotely indicating the scale or horror of those events.

By "those events", I assume you meant the Final Solution but that didn't begin until 1942. Yes, mass execution of Jews by the Einsatzgruppen were taking place in the East but there was really no means of getting the word out about events in the East at this point.

Think about it: who other than various church organizations really understood what the Nazis were doing, and could have alerted the world to it?

Certainly the Communists. As far as churches go, the decentralized Protestants really didn't have a mechanism of getting the word out whereas the Catholics did.

Yes, I understand why they didn't, but let's not pretend something happened which in fact didn't.

What are you getting at?

13 posted on 12/15/2011 4:03:08 PM PST by fso301
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To: fso301
fso301: "The Final Solution did not begin until 1942."

I'm certain you know your history well enough to realize that Nazis' systematic persecutions of Jews -- as Jews and for no other reason -- had been going on since 1933, with each new step ratcheting up the horrors.
Outright murders of Jews began with the invasion of Poland in 1939.

It is precisely this systematic persecution of Jews, as Jews, about which all churches remained publicly silent.
Indeed, the Pope did not even speak openly about the murder of thousands of Catholic clergy, much less about Einsatzgruppen shootings of hundreds of thousands of east European Jews.

Did the Pope know?
How could he not know, since every German military unit had chaplains at some level?

fso301: "How many people even know about the Greek famine?"

Greek famine: 300,000 estimated total deaths.
I didn't remember it, so pretty good bet most others also don't.
The starvation of 300,000 Greeks represented about 4% of Greece's 7.4 million total population.

"Because of the efforts of the Greek Diaspora in the United States and Great Britain, the situation of the starving civilian population in Greece soon became a public issue in the Allied countries.
The increasing public pressure finally led to the lifting of the naval blockade in February 1942.[12]

"The plan carried under the auspices of the International Red Cross, while Sweden offered for the transportation of 15,000 tons of Canadian wheat.[19]
Wheat shipments soon began and together with the rising temperatures of springtime, resulted in the reduction of the mortality rates.[12]

"At the end of 1942 with the steady supply of sufficient quantities to the country's greatest ports, the mortality rate fell,[16] however the food situation remained grim until the end of the occupation (1944)"

Demographic statistics show that during this period, the death rate nearly doubled, while live births fell by nearly half, resulting in an overall reduction of Greek population of about 100,000 people.

By contrast, the Nazis' systematic murders of Jews destroyed about 80% of the 7.8 million (compare to 7.4 million Greeks) Jewish population under Nazi control.

fso301: "As far as churches go, the decentralized Protestants really didn't have a mechanism of getting the word out whereas the Catholics did."

Nor did Jews themselves know or report the full extent of Nazi persecutions.
Indeed, you have to wonder if the real problem wasn't they all truly "didn't know", or if our guys in the West just didn't want to learn about it?
Today it's impossible to imagine that such information would not somehow leak out, but there you have it.

fso301: "What are you getting at?"

I'll say it again: let's not pretend that churches routinely reported or decried Nazi atrocities against Jews, when in fact, they almost never did.
Indeed, they barely mentioned publicly Nazi atrocities against their own clergy.

16 posted on 12/16/2011 4:31:52 AM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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