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VANITY: Elizabeth Smart got me thinking--what's up with Mormons?

Posted on 08/02/2011 7:11:00 PM PDT by Feline_AIDS

The following is the short version of how I recently discovered Mormonism is nothing like I thought it was.

A few weeks ago, ABC announced that former kidnapping and rape victim Elizabeth Smart would join them as a commenter on kidnapping cases around the country. With the memory of Casey Anthony lingering in my head, I thought, I'll youtube Elizabeth Smart and see what kind of smooth talker she is to be asked to do this. What I found was a beautiful, poised, graceful woman who would never stoop to entering a "hot body contest" like Casey Anthony, but certainly not one I would have guessed would become a news commenter. Those people are expected to repeat facts we've all already heard at least 2374828 times before, only in a more "impactful" way. She seems like the type not to speak unless she has something to say, which is a great and rare quality, however it's certainly not what we expect to see on TV.

So I started googling. I was 16 when Elizabeth Smart was abducted, too young to be scared or concerned because Utah was across the country and if my mother's constant warnings had reflected any shadow of reality, people were abducted left and right all the time anyway.

I read Elizabeth Smart's (ES) testimony in Brian David Mitchell's (BDM) competency hearing, BDM's first interview with police in Sandy, Utah, Wanda Barzee's testimony at BDM's trial, ES's testimony at BDM's trial, ES's statement at BDM's sentencing, the testimony of a head doctor at BDM's competency hearing, and a few articles written soon after ES was found.

As I read, I realized that I knew very little about Mormonism, or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I knew they believed in odd things, Jesus visiting America after his resurrection for example, but that was the extent of my knowledge. (Oh, also a family story: When the Mormons came through South Carolina in the late 1800s, they told one of my relatives that he could have two or more wives if he became a Mormon and went to Utah. He tried to get his current wife to go with him, but she wasn't having it, and he went by himself. He returned a year or two later claiming that the new wives they had given him were combined not as pretty as the wife he already had in South Carolina. She took him back.)

After some more googling, I learned that Mormons believe the following (not exhaustive):

-God has a physical body

-God was once a man, and men on Earth can become equal to God

-God lives near the star Kolob

-God is accompanied by a goddess (or goddesses), who is too holy to talk about, and possibly more powerful/holy than God himself

-Jesus and Satan were brothers

-Jesus was married

-Good Mormons will be rewarded for their works by getting their own planet over which they'll have dominion just like God has over us

-The Bible is imperfectly translated and cannot be trusted

-A tribe of Jews came to North America and perpetuated a HUGE advanced civilization of millions of people (for which there is zero archeological evidence)

-The good tribe was annihilated by the bad tribe in one giant battle in New York state that killed 2+ million people

-The LDS church is controlled by a group of people who receive "revelations" about what to do

-The LDS church has a president whose revelations frequently alter or update church doctrine

(Here's where I'll say that not all Mormons believe these things, because they probably just don't know. Similarly, lots of people who attend my Presbyterian church probably know little about Calvin or what we disagree with other Christians about. Mormons have a policy that some on exmormon.org called "Milk before meat," meaning new members/converts are not told all these beliefs until they are very deeply involved in the church.)

This was quite surprising to me. Mormons are polytheists. Mormonism, I suppose, is actually closer to Islam than it is to Christianity. Islam is defined by the Koran, which is essentially the "final chapter" of the story begun in the Bible. The Book of Mormon is also a "final chapter" of the story begun in the Bible. Both of them radically alter Christianity to the point that it is nothing like it.

Now how does this relate to Elizabeth Smart? She and her Mormon family met her abductor when he was panhandling in SLC. Her mother gave him some money and IIRC, asked if he needed work. Little did she know he was scoping out candidates for the 14-year-old wives he had received a revelation to take. ES's family had him come work on their home. Perhaps you could call this Christian charity, and perhaps that's what it is. But part of me wonders if, since Mormonism is largely a works-based salvation model, their willingness to help BDM was bolstered by the need to do good works. I don't think this equates to blame--not even close. But it might help explain why they invited a drifter they didn't know to come work on a roof where skylights provided a view of the floorplan leading to their daughter's bedroom. I read some past posts on FR about the BDM trial, and the consensus among Freepers commenting was 1) the father, Ed Smart, is ultra creepy, and 2) it was his fault for inviting a bum to work on the house. The declarations of "creepiness" of the father are unfair, I think, because he was the police's #1 suspect at first, he was emotional, his daughter had been kidnapped from the seemingly safe home he had provided for her, and he knew she was probably going through hell. He deserves credit for keeping her story in the news while she was gone and for not giving up hope that she was alive. The fault here belongs to BDM and Wanda Barzee, his wife and accomplice.

To her credit, Elizabeth Smart testified she never believed that BDM was receiving revelations from God, and she never thought he was the prophet he claimed to be. (Lots of people wondered why she didn't run since she was out in public. She testified repeatedly that BDM told her that he would kill her, or if she escaped, her family. He knew people who could do it for him if he was taken to jail. And he was able to get in her house to take her, so why shouldn't she believe the rest?) But Mormonism leaves the door open to these people--these false prophets, one of whom was Joseph Smith himself. BDM was a rapist and a pedophile and deserves to die for his crimes, I think. (He won't--he got a life sentence in his federal trial. Fun BDM anecdote from Wanda Barzee's testimony: He killed his stepdaughter's pet rabbit and fed it to her, telling her it was chicken.) But he was also imitating the theological behavior that the LDS church was founded on. Reading what Wanda Barzee, BDM's wife, said as she testified only confirmed this. Barzee was mentally unstable, but she was also a devout LDS follower. She believed in this culture of latter-day saints and revelations, and it was that belief that enabled her to follow BDM and believe his revelations about plural wives, alcohol, drugs, and the rape of a 14-year-old girl.

The Latter-Day Saints model is a clever design, really. Christianity, "when it happened," physically benefitted no one. Mormonism benefitted Joseph Smith. Christians know that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and that they are saved by grace; there is nothing they can do to earn their salvation. But the LDS Church informs members of "callings," which are works they must perform to remain in good standing. The LDS church has a steady supply of indentured workers laboring desperately for their salvation.

I'm not surprised that something like this exists; I'm surprised that so many people are hoodwinked by the story Joseph Smith made up. Sure, you could say that Christianity is just a story someone made up, too. But the Bible is a historical document that references real people, real people groups, and real places. The Book of Mormon is a fairytale.

Back to Elizabeth Smart: I hope she lives a full and happy life. I genuinely like her and her attitude. I want her to succeed as an ABC correspondent. It was evident from her testimony that she has put the past where it belongs and is moving on with her life, and that is something that I am thrilled to see. She is refusing to be a victim, and is instead claiming ownership over herself and her life. Good for her. I hope when she becomes a goddess, she gets a nice planet like earth to rule over, and not some frozen chunk of ice like Pluto.

-- Sites that I visited while considering these things:

Elizabeth Smart's testimony in BDM's competency hearing http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2009-10/49605279.pdf

BDM's sentencing hearing http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=15696692

Elizabeth Smart's testimony part 1 http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50632966-76/smart-viti-yes-elizabeth.html.csp

part 2 http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50639245-76/smart-viti-yes-cable.html.csp

part 3 http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50647494-76/elizabeth-mitchell-smart-viti.html.csp

Wanda Barzee's testimony in BDM trial http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50704089-76/steele-barzee-mcknight-mitchell.html.csp

http://exmormon.org/ and http://www.exmormon.org/phorum/

Lifting the Veil of Polygamy - Documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-iIOWOblW0

The Bible vs The Book of Mormon - Documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTtq62XQ4jw&feature=relmfu

Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer


TOPICS: Religion; Society
KEYWORDS: antimormon; elizabethsmart; lds; mormonism; utah
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To: Salvavida

I never said Mormons were bad people.

- - - - -
Try to get a copy of “the Darker Side of Virtue” by Anson Shupe and you may change your mind on even that.

Part of the reason I converted to Mormonism was their public image of being ‘good, kind, patriotic, conservative, wonderful’ people. After I moved ‘behind the Zion curtain’ (Utah), I found out that it isn’t the case at all.


41 posted on 08/02/2011 10:39:08 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: Tennessee Nana

More stunt Mormons using the same old ‘pat answers’ that we respond to every day.

I really wish they would come up with some new material. At least the RLDS guy on the other thread gave some new talking points.


42 posted on 08/02/2011 10:42:41 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: Salvavida

Excellent observations.


43 posted on 08/02/2011 10:43:08 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, believe Mohammed’s son was to be their next leader. Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith’s followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith’s own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith’s claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.
________________________________________

[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.

(Decker, Ed, My Kingdom Come: The Mormon Quest for Godhood, Xulon Press, 2007)


44 posted on 08/02/2011 10:51:02 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: repub4ever1

You know you missed a couple...

Heres one for you...

Do Mormons believe in honor killing when a woman is raped...

Yes an equivilant of that...

They have a saying that goes something like

“If you are raped, come home in a pine box...”

In other words the woman should fight and die rather than be raped...

Like the Moslems, the Mormons believe that a girl loses her value if she is raped and thus loses her virtue and worth...

If thats not honoe killing what is..


45 posted on 08/02/2011 11:00:12 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

Right after Elizabeth Smart was found, I remember reading something to the effect that ‘the first presidency has decided Elizabeth was not at fault for what happened and have determined her to be ‘pure’ before the Lord”.

My reaction was “SAY WHAT?!? Who the Hell are they to say who is ‘pure’ or not before the Lord!”

I remember getting into a fight with a guy at BYU who said if women were raped it was their fault if they didn’t fight to the death. I nearly punched him right in the middle of my Intensive Writing course.


46 posted on 08/02/2011 11:12:54 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: Chi-townChief; Feline_AIDS
All God’s children ...

Jesus thoroughly refutes the "All God's children" myth in John 8. That is why we contend for the faith with love, hoping and praying people will hear His words and respond to Him.

We are all created by Him, but we are not all in God's family: the Bible clearly teaches this.

47 posted on 08/02/2011 11:15:30 PM PDT by Salvavida (The restoration of the U.S.A. starts with filling the pews at every Bible-believing church.)
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To: reaganaut

Yes isnt that strange ???

and what regular Mormon girl would have been deemed worthy to go off on a mission ???

and about that , she wasnt given any time to heal emotionally or psychologically

In fact I think I remember reading or hearing that she didnt need any help because as a Mormon she was expected to be above such things and to gut it out and not be weak...

“get over it and get out on a mission...we can exploit you and your “event” for all the PR its worth”


48 posted on 08/02/2011 11:18:28 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Feline_AIDS; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...

Now that’s two I hope God has reserved a hot spot in hell for.

The depth of deception that exists in a person’s mind to believe that claptrap called Mormonism is just staggering.


49 posted on 08/03/2011 4:24:51 AM PDT by metmom (Be the kind of woman that when you wake in the morning, the devil says, "Oh crap, she's UP !!")
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To: Feline_AIDS
One Key thing Mormon's believe is that "Jesus" died for the sin's of Adam only. For the rest of us, he only showed the "way".

"It is not fully comprehended why it was necessary that Jesus Christ should leave the heavens, ...and come upon the earth to offer himself up a sacrifice; ...why this should be, why it was necessary that his blood should be shed is an apparent mystery. ...what sins of the world did he take away? We are told that it is the sin which Adam committed."

LDS Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, pp. 114 - 115, 1863

Note: From http://www.ondoctrine.com/1mormo03.htm

"What is being taught by LDS Apostle John Taylor is that the death of Christ was only sufficient and able to take away the sins of Adam and Eve as personally applied to them only. The sins of the world, and every individual after Adam and Eve, cannot be taken away by the death of Jesus Christ. His death is not adequate to accomplish the task. The Bible teaches a doctrine that is clearly opposite to Mr. Taylor, and despite his claims to the contrary, the Biblical teaching is very complete, clear and understandable"

50 posted on 08/03/2011 4:35:14 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: JAKraig
“Mormons are not monotheistic”

You may want to clear that with SLC there JA, especially as a non Mormon. Being polytheist is not in the sales brochures for a reason, it scares the straights...

51 posted on 08/03/2011 4:38:23 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: JAKraig; Salvavida

“One of your professors was an idiot. Mormonism is not even close to having the slightest resemblance to Islam, unless both having a prophet makes them similar. Mormons are not monotheistic, They believe God The Father is God, they believe that Jesus Christ is God and they believe that The Holy Ghost is God. The three Gods are not one God but three individuals, each with their own body and own responsibilities.

This is about the most lame hit on Mormons I have ever seen. It is sick, irresponsible and written like a 5th grader. I hope some Mormon will sign on and refute it line for line. The Mormons are good people and this person has made them out to be deluded and evil.”

************************************************************************************

On the contrary, the similarities between Mormonism and Islam are far greater than you care to admit to, although, I can see why you’d want to distance yourself from Islam.

It’s not just one tiny piece of their theology of the divine. Yours is just a lame defense of the indefensible. The rest of us can see it clearly. It’s not the professors who are the idiots....

Islamic And Mormonism Similarities: Similarities Between Joseph Smith and Muhammad
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2647707/posts

Mormons and Muslims? How do you all see each other?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/762997/posts

Why scholar thinks Mormons should support Ground Zero Mosque (OPEN)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2688191/posts


52 posted on 08/03/2011 4:40:46 AM PDT by metmom (Be the kind of woman that when you wake in the morning, the devil says, "Oh crap, she's UP !!")
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To: JAKraig; Salvavida
One of your professors was an idiot. Mormonism is not even close to having the slightest resemblance to Islam, unless both having a prophet makes them similar. Mormons are not monotheistic, They believe God The Father is God, they believe that Jesus Christ is God and they believe that The Holy Ghost is God. The three Gods are not one God but three individuals, each with their own body and own responsibilities.

This is about the most lame hit on Mormons I have ever seen. It is sick, irresponsible and written like a 5th grader. I hope some Mormon will sign on and refute it line for line. The Mormons are good people and this person has made them out to be deluded and evil."

I notice the area of the attack of this article is not the content but rather that you claim it's written like a 5th grader.

You're a fine one to be criticizing literary style. Perhaps you meant to say that it was written as if written by a 5th grader.

53 posted on 08/03/2011 4:43:19 AM PDT by metmom (Be the kind of woman that when you wake in the morning, the devil says, "Oh crap, she's UP !!")
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To: JAKraig; Salvavida
One of your professors was an idiot. Mormonism is not even close to having the slightest resemblance to Islam, unless both having a prophet makes them similar. Mormons are not monotheistic, They believe God The Father is God, they believe that Jesus Christ is God and they believe that The Holy Ghost is God. The three Gods are not one God but three individuals, each with their own body and own responsibilities.

This is about the most lame hit on Mormons I have ever seen. It is sick, irresponsible and written like a 5th grader. I hope some Mormon will sign on and refute it line for line. The Mormons are good people and this person has made them out to be deluded and evil."

Why don't you refute it line by line? You are claiming it's all washed up. Why wait for a Mormon to sign on and refute it? Or don't you really know all that much about Mormonism to shoot your mouth off after all?

54 posted on 08/03/2011 4:44:54 AM PDT by metmom (Be the kind of woman that when you wake in the morning, the devil says, "Oh crap, she's UP !!")
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To: Salvavida

Amen.


55 posted on 08/03/2011 4:51:24 AM PDT by metmom (Be the kind of woman that when you wake in the morning, the devil says, "Oh crap, she's UP !!")
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To: Salvavida

How so?


56 posted on 08/03/2011 5:11:41 AM PDT by Chi-townChief
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To: Feline_AIDS; repub4ever1

But Mormonism as a theocracy was a danger to those who disagreed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_violence Of course, you have Rome being the same as a theocracy, and early Protestantism who learned it from them, both being in contrast to the early church. (Jn. 18:36; 1Cor. 5:13; 2Cor. 10:3; Eph. 6:12; 1Pt. 2:13,14)


57 posted on 08/03/2011 6:58:36 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: Chi-townChief

As regards being a creation of God, then all are God’s offspring, (Acts 17:28)in that sense, but not spiritually, which is what really matters. And if you read it, (Jn. 8:44; cf. Eph. 2:3: “children of wrath”) you should see that being the children of the devil is opposed to being the children of God, and thus the need for a spiritual birthday, (Jn. 3:3) in conversion.


58 posted on 08/03/2011 7:35:09 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: metmom
that exists in a person’s mind

Amazing what the mind can conceive and 'believe'.....

If an individual 'wants' to belive something that's not true you can be certain if it distracts them from a true relationship with Christ, or can interfer with that, or derail their search for truth, the enemy of men's souls will arrange counterfeit "experiences" to keep them from the real truth....

At issue is do they 'believe' what they are seeing and hearing. If they do it is a certainty they will soon find themselves departing Christianity as it truly is....others will note this before they do for they are being deceived. Often they ignore the warnings from those who attempt to steer them straight.

59 posted on 08/03/2011 8:03:41 AM PDT by caww
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To: nickcarraway
explain why they invited a drifter they didn't know to come work on a roof where skylights provided a view of the floorplan leading to their daughter's bedroom.

Most parents wouldn't consider bringing a "drifter" near their children, regardless of what they might imagine a "good deed". They would instead refer the man to the organizations who are expereinced in dealing with the downtrodden.

God gives us common sense....Smarts weren't very smart concerning hiring this guy...and they put their daughters in peril by taking him on.

60 posted on 08/03/2011 8:14:21 AM PDT by caww
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