Posted on 03/22/2011 4:09:49 AM PDT by bkepley
Looks like everyone's here. Wife, cat, dog, me.
Very well put.
INDEED.
Sounds like plain Bible.
. . . for those interested in the PLAIN BIBLE.
Those that shall be found alive will then be changed. They shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:17. At, or immediately before, this rapture into the clouds, those who are alive will undergo a mighty change, which will be equivalent to dying. This change is so mysterious that we cannot comprehend it: we know little or nothing of it, 1 Corinthians 15:51. Only, in the general, this mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies will be made fit to inherit the kingdom of God, which flesh and blood in its present state are not capable of.
From Henry on 1 Cor 15:51 – “Those that are alive at our Lord's coming will be caught up into the clouds, without dying,
Caught Up – Greek “Harpazo” – Latin “Rapiemur” - English “Rapture”
John Gill (1697 – 1771…again long before 1909) on 1 thess 4:17:
” suddenly, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and with force and power; by the power of Christ, and by the ministry and means of the holy angels; and to which rapture will contribute, the agility which the bodies both of the raised and changed saints will have: and this rapture of the living saints will be…
I wonder if the scholar you quoted bothered to actually do any research…or if he just did a lot of copy/pasting…ANYWAY…back to your last post…
Oh...I understand the verse...and my replies to previous posts to other Freepers shows that I understand it. You also know I understand it...
And the fact you won't answer a simple yes or no question shows you've boxed yourself into a corner...and I think you know it. ;-) You can’t say “YES”…because then you have to admit the “RAPTURE” is taught (regardless of timing…or the NAME as the “rapture” is simply the teaching that there is a translation and changing of the mortal believer into that which is immortal and able to inherit Heaven)…and you have to admit the article and your views are a little faulty because you got hung up on a word and confused a word with a teaching. The real debate is the timing. Of course…you can’t say “NO” because then you deny the Word of God…
See, you believe the Word of God. I believe you do. However, you stepped out in a little bit of ignorance. Now...you've stepped IN it. And rather than admit it...you won't answer...and you KNOW that is what you are doing. But...even if you still won't admit it...let me prove it again.
You posted an article that basically says the "rapture" is "man made" from the Scofield notes in 1909. Perhaps the term "rapture" didn't come into wide usage until then...but it is slander against Scofield to say it wasn't taught before then. Again...WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A WORD AND A CONCEPT.
The article gets into much detail about "harpazo" and its usage as "rapture." Well...Philip was snatched away...and so was Paul. In 1 Cor 15 and 1 thess 4...Living Christians will be snatched away. The difference between them and Philip or Paul is they will be CHANGED at THEIR snatching away...and their mortality will put on immortality. Context makes that clear.
The concept of the rapture was taught LONG before Scofield put the WORD to it...and again...the word is just a transliteration from the Latin...which is no different than you calling our Savior JESUS instead of Yeshua or Iesu!
Again...regardless of whether or not you AGREE with it...the CONCEPT wasn't invented in 1909. Your scholar doesn’t know what he is talking about and it’s a hit piece that is long on opinion and short on research. Perhaps the term “rapture” didn’t become POPULAR until then…but as I PROVED, it was used…IN SPEAKING OF 1 Thess 4… at least 200 years before 1909 by Henry and Gill (and others). The concept, whether you agree or not, was taught long before that:
Victorinus…3rd Century: “"And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.”
Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373): “Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.”
Increase Mather (1639-1723): “"that the saints would be caught up into the air beforehand, thereby escaping the final conflagration."
Peter Jurieu (1687): “Peter Jurie in his book "Approaching Deliverance of the Church " (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to heaven before the battle of Armageddon.He spoke of a secret Rapture prior to His coming in glory and judgment at Armageddon.”
So…the concept of a rapture was taught long before 1909. The WORD rapture was used…IN ENGLISH…long before 1909. The timing of the “trumpet sound” can certainly be of open debate. HOWEVER…there can be NO DEBATE that there is a rapture. Again…rapture is just an English word that is Anglicanized from the Latin. JUST LIKE THE NAME JESUS! So…if you have a problem with Rapture…you probably should stop calling on the name of Jesus.
If you believe that living mortal Christians will one day hear the trumpet of God…and that they will be CAUGHT UP into the air alive…their mortal bodies forever changed…putting on immortality…and that they will forever be with the Lord…
THEN YOU BELIEVE IN THE RAPTURE. It doesn’t matter whether or not you believe it happens 7 years prior to Jesus’ coming again…or AT His second coming. If you believe it…then you believe there is a rapture. If you don’t…then you don’t believe the Word of God.
Ah, thanks for clarifying that. :-)
You didn’t warn about the need for eye protection.
Thank you for making my point!
But...humor me...as I ask the same question I did to a previous Freeper in an attempt to clarify your exact belief (to see if we are talking a difference of BELIEF here...or just semantics over a word):
Do you BELIEVE the Word of God teaches that there will be an event in the future when living mortal Christians will one day hear the trumpet of God…and that they will be CAUGHT UP into the air alive…their mortal bodies forever changed…putting on immortality…and that they will forever be with the Lord…?
Forget the timing...the label...etc. Do YOU believe that God teaches us...in His Word, that there is an event in the future in which mortal Christians...alive...with a heartbeat...will find themselves living their lives here on earth one second...Hear the sound of a trumpet...at which point they will then be changed into immortality...meeting the Lord in the Air and will forever be with Him?
Yes or No?
Your answer, again, determines whether or not we have a semantic issue over a word...or whether we have a wide gap on how to interprete scripture. Forget the timing. Who cares if it is in a month or 10,000 years. Forget the question on whether or not this is a separate event or the second coming being spoken of in 1 Cor 15/1 Thes 4. Forget all of that. Will there be such an event in which mortal Christians put on immortality without tasting death...and they will meet Christ in the air?
HHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.
I've neither asked for nor demand your "respect". And whether you agree with it or not, I am entitled to my own opinion.
However, it would help your point if you could first get consensus on what - exactly - is almighty god's word.
Ahh...I get it!
Make it so, Lord, Jesus, Make it so!
INDEED.
That one’s good for a belly laugh...There will be so much laughter and finger pointing, I think I’ll stay here..
I’d NOT recommend that in a trillion trillion trillion quadrillion years.
That sounds like our national debt....put dollars instead of years..:O) I won’t even look at myself naked, much less let everyone one else..I have had enough people laugh at me in my 7 decades..If no wardrobe I aint going.....
Surrender to The King of Kings and Lord of Lords
is to be absolutely full and complete.
After that, I think HE’S in the driver’s seat.
BTW, there’s no stories of folks being naked in Heaven.
What do you think the gift of His Robes of Righteousness to His kids is for! LOL.
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