Posted on 03/22/2011 4:09:49 AM PDT by bkepley
Looks like everyone's here. Wife, cat, dog, me.
Now...I think we can actually settle the debate of the rapture by answering a carefully worded question:
To ALL: Regardless of the timing...all TIME issues aside (regardless of when it happens...May 21? or 5000 years from now...doesn't matter)...regardless of what you call it (Rapture, Second Coming, Wow...Look at the Bright Light...Don't Care)...
Do you believe that there will be an event in the future in which some believers (Christians) will still be alive at the time of Christ's appearing (parousia)...and that they will be "CHANGED" from a mortal body to an immortal body...and that in the process of that changing...they will be caught up into the clouds to Meet the Lord in the Air...and will be with Him forever?
Answer that question YES or NO. Do you believe that question to be an event that will take place at some point in the future? Do you agree with the premise of the question....
“People Love To Have It So”
The Rapture
by Gary McDade
Human nature has changed very little since Bible times as is evidenced by comparing a statement in the Book of Jeremiah with a seemingly unabated infatuation with a contrived doctrine commonly known as “the Rapture.” In the sixth century BC Jeremiah said, “A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?” (Jer. 5:30-31).
“The Rapture” is contrived from the footnotes contained in the Scofield Reference Bible that was edited by C.I. Scofield, copyrighted, and first published in 1909. The 1917 edition is infamous for its propagation of the false teaching known as premillennialism with “the Rapture” being a popular part of that system of belief. This system of belief holds forth the view of multiple “comings” and judgments and resurrections that are separated by a great span of time, e.g., 1,000 years (cf. pp. 1226-1228 -comments on I Cor. 15; pp. 1350-1351 - comments on Rev. 20). Yet, the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of his coming and the final resurrection and the judgment occurring in the same day and hour! In Matthew 24:36 he said, “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” He spoke of his second coming, the resurrection of the dead, and the judgment as happening in “that day and hour.” When he compared his second coming to the days of Noah he spoke of “the day that Noah entered into the ark” and said, “So shall also the coming of the Son of man be” (v. 39; emphasis added). As he spoke of the two women grinding at the mill, one taken in a prepared state the other left unprepared, he said, “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come” (v. 42; emphasis added). The good man of the house who was robbed illustrated “in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (v. 44; emphasis added). The evil servants who began to riotously behave were told, “The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of” (v. 50; emphasis added).
Anyone who is honest with the inspired text of the straightforward statements of the Savior in John 5:28-29 must admit that Scofield and his followers like John Walvoord, Hal Lindsey, Adrian Rogers, and Charles Stanley have gotten it wrong. Scofield and his students affirm many centuries between the resurrection and judgment of the righteous and the wicked (cf. the pages of the Scofield Reference Bible mentioned earlier), but the Son of God said, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (emphasis added). Notice that both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected in the same hour. This is not what the men listed above teach!
Scofield’s followers-use the word “Rapture” even though they know and admit that it is not a Bible word. Listen to Hal Lindsey, “Sometimes misunderstood terms provide the red flag an unbeliever needs to turn him from the simple truth of God’s Word. ‘Rapture’ may be one of those words. It is not found in the Bible, so there is no need to race for your concordance, if you have one” (The Late Great Planet Earth, p. 137). Observe that Lindsey admits that using words not found in the Bible may turn unbelievers away “from the simple truth of God’s Word,” but he went ahead and used such a word anyway! Observe further that when novices today intimate that the word “Rapture” is in the Bible, they stand corrected by their own guides.
Charles F. Stanley, President and Publisher of In Touch monthly magazine, wrote, “When the Bible says that believers will be ‘caught up’ in the air with the Lord, the literal Greek phrase calls for us to be ‘snatched away.’ Our term ‘Rapture’ is the derivative of this wording” (February 2003, p. 25). Observe that he called “Rapture” “our term.” He got the term from Lindsey and Scofield (p. 1349). “Rapture” is not a Bible term, but premillennialists would “love to have it so.”
Premillennialists talk about this word the KJV renders “shall be caught up” in I Thessalonians 4:17 as if that is the only time it appears in the Bible. Rest assured it is not! The Greek word in I Thessalonians 4:17 is from harpazo and is found fourteen times in the New Testament. Examples include Acts 8:39, “And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing” (emphasis added); II Corinthians 12:2-4, “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter” (emphasis added); and Revelation 12:5, “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne” (emphasis added). Consider Stanley’s definition “snatched away” for this Greek word, and see how it works in these passages. You would have the Spirit “snatching away” Philip following the conversion of the Eunuch. The man Paul knew who was transported to heaven would have been “snatched away” to paradise. And, the reference in Revelation 12:5 is to the Lord himself ascending to the throne of God. Compare the account in Acts 1 of Christ’s ascension, and see which fits the context better “caught up” or “snatched away.” For certain, “Rapture” will not work in any of the fourteen passages where this Greek word is found. Even the premillennialists, who are desperate to hold on to the word “Rapture” as it has descended from their guide Scofield, would not take such a position because then they would have to explain how the Bible teaches not one so-called “Rapture” but fourteen! Was Philip “Raptured” in Acts 8:39? Was the man Paul knew “Raptured” in II Corinthians 12:2-4? Was the Lord “Raptured” when he left the earth? The premillennialist will not so suggest because although his system contains multiple “comings,” resurrections, and judgments, he wants only one “Rapture.” Again, “a wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land ... and my people love to have it so.”
“Well crud, my 50th birthday party is scheduled for May 28!!!!”
Well you can celebrate with me. My birthday is May 18th!!! So it looks like we have a few days to party before the big event!
Dude... You mean we are going to go naked!?!?! This is not going to be pretty, at least in my case...
How do you know there is no beer? Because the ancient Egyptians invented it? There will be wine, why not beer?
I Thessalonians 4:13-5:11
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
BFLR
None of the above is to say that we agree with Darby on anything, but we cannot dismiss him out of hand. It's less than helpful to call Christians, who also are careful and systematic in their Bible study, "snake handlers" and "cool aid drinkers". I would love to see a mutual and decent respect between Catholics, Covenant and Dispensational protestants, and others. But not an uncritical respect, rather one that looks for the relative merit in each. Which isn't to say that there aren't crazy religious nutcases or that we should take them seriously. But I'm just pleading for restraint.
Is that a Yes or No?
What I say doesn’t matter, its what God word teaches.
II Peter 3: 3-13
First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
I Corinthians 15:51-53
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality
What a clear statement! These paragraphs all by themselves are worth an entire semester of philosopy.
My Bday is actually the 25th, we are just having the party on Saturday since there will probably be alcohol and excessive celebration involved. LOL.
Oops! I was wrong, all your paragraphs together aren’t worth an entire semester.
It’s your sentances.
Your sentances are each worth at least a semester apiece.
Do you BELIEVE the Word of God teaches that those who are alive at the Coming of Christ will be caught up Alive in the air...and that their mortal bodies will put on immortality?
Forget the timing...the label...etc. Do YOU believe that God teaches us...in His Word, that there is an event in the future in which mortal Christians...alive...with a heartbeat...will find themselves living their lives here on earth one second...Hear the sound of a trumpet...at which point they will then be changed into immortality...meeting the Lord in the Air and will forever be with Him?
Does the Bible teach that according to your understanding?
The words “rapture” do not appear in the Bible, this is true.
However, this passage suggest something will happen to those who believe, that we will be taken away by God from this earth.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-20 (English Standard Version)
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
I did not avoid your question, I answered it using God’s word.
I’ll post if for you again, ur answer can be found here: 1 Cor. 15: 51-53.
Do you not understand this verse?
YUP.
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