Posted on 05/30/2010 4:41:07 PM PDT by JoeProBono
But, that IS the situation we're all talking about. Ping to wintertime. Her children started CC courses at age 12 and 13. By age 18, they had bachelor's degrees. (Correct me if I'm wrong, wintertime.)
Star Traveler, with all due respect, you seem unable to understand that there are many different paths to success. As we've said again and again, it is COMMON for high school-age students to take dual-credit courses on community college campuses.
if you're talking about working at some research institution and/or being a brain surgeon or heart specialist, or getting involved in some of the advanced sciences, or working at a NASA facility being in charge of some space program and/or planning on advancing up to be Vice President in charge of a division or even CEO someday -- nope... I would stay as far away from Community College as possible ... LOL ...
How about governor of Alaska? ;-)
....And some people just arent meant to take advantage of that kind of education. If they're one of them, then that's fine. They just have to get by whatever way they can. Not everyone can be at the top... there's always got to be more Indians than Chiefs ...
In the example I gave, one guy (I grew up with) transferred credits from CC to a university, commuted to the university and entered its work co-op program, and upon graduation, was hired immediately as an aerospace engineer for a space satellite program in the mid-1980's. He had to pass security clearance and all. Starting out at a community college never hurt him. Last I heard, he had his own company.
I just remembered: There's another guy I knew who started out at CC. I lost touch and don't know if he ever went to a university, but I do know that he has his own company now, too.
Dr. Thomas Sowell never graduated high school. He earned a GED before entering Howard University and then transferred to Harvard. Where your education starts doesn't hurt. It's where it ends that counts. And it's what you do with it that really counts.
You're claiming authority on the subject based on relatively limited experience in Portland. I've always lived in and around the Philadelphia area surrounded by big-name universities. In Philadelphia alone, there's Drexel, University of Pennsylvania, Temple University. In the PA suburbs, there's Villanova, for example, and here in NJ there's Princeton, Rutgers, and so on.
What counts is whether or not you earned a bachelor's degree, which college awarded you that degree, and what your major was.
they will all shut down and be locked up tighter than a drum at night and on weekends, except for maybe a couple of classrooms (for some evening courses, if they have them, or the university library. There's no partying in those facilities. They're always locked up. The partying goes on in someone's house, or in someone's apartment
Well, no, that's not true. There are daytime events held on campus at universities that can get very rowdy. The university campus is very different from a CC campus. As I said, a university is like a community in and of itself. A community college - especially the suburban variety - has a very different type of atmosphere. (And there are four-year colleges with safer atmospheres, too, such as some of the Christian colleges.)
if that 13-14 year old girl only takes a few course here and there -- well..., she'll be "caught up in age" with the other students, in a few years and then she'll be "age appropriate" -- at that point in time to be able to take a full load of classes.
No, she'll be ahead of the game. Let's say she starts at 13 and takes just three courses each year: one in the fall, spring, and summer. By age 18, she would be in the second half of her sophomore year. Of course, at that point, she'd start full-time and, if she planned right, could have her bachelor's degree by age 20. Again, she has nothing to lose. And taking CC classes during the high school years is exactly what college recruiters are telling homeschooled students to do now.
I have taught medical students for 30 years.
As you might imagine, I’ve seen hundreds of fast-trackers.
It’s almost always a mistake. I can count on the fingers of one hand the exceptions.
They do exist, but it’s very, very rare.
I agree that you might likely find problems with "fast trackers" in medical school. Making a decision to become a physician or surgeon narrows one's options considerably, and doing this at a young age may cause resentment if that decision was based upon an immature idea of what medicine entails.
Our philosophy regarding our homeschoolers was to give them the very best and broadest education possible, so that as adults they would have the best foundation for pursuing their career goals. We believe that our children's university education was far superior in providing that broad foundation that anything any high school could provide ( private or government).
Even though our youngest has a B.S. in mathematics, she is now completing the requirements for a degree in nursing. Believe me, she is far better prepared for her basic courses in nursing that are her fellow students who only have a high school diploma. The courses are easy for my daughter.
The middle child earned a masters in mathematics by the age of 20. She did teach math for one year in a Catholic K-8 private school. She is now a wife and mother of 2 preschoolers. I suspect that in time she will study finance. Her foundation for having success in that field is **excellent**. More important, though, is she is well prepared to be wife and mother to her children.
The oldest studied accounting in the evening at a local college. He is a highly ranked athlete. He has traveled all over the world representing the U.S. in his sport. He also took a few years off as a later teen to work for our church in Eastern Europe, and came home completely fluent in Russian. He recently retired from competing. He will soon finish an M.B.A. in accounting at an age that is typical for students who have gone to government high school and attended college full-time. My son's rich and varied life experiences will serve him well in his business career and in his personal life.
If my son had attended high school it would have been impossible for him to have traveled as widely as he did, learned Russian fluently in Eastern Europe, had as much work experiences and responsibilities, and had as many richly rewarding international friendships.
But, that IS the situation we're all talking about. Ping to wintertime. Her children started CC courses at age 12 and 13. By age 18, they had bachelor's degrees. (Correct me if I'm wrong, wintertime.)
Well, I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about a girl 13-14 years old, going to a university and taking her four year degree program and graduating at (approximately) 18 years old. And that's the situation I would not put a girl in. But, under strict supervision and picking up and dropping off, with a few classes [maybe two], then that's good enough supervision.
So..., in regards to those kids being taken, dropped off, picked up, and continually supervised -- as I said, that's "more like it" -- in watching over a kid that young. And I would say, especially so, with a girl in a university setting.
However, in regards to the length of time you gave, for getting a degree -- that's impossible, under the circumstances described with these kids (who were supervised), in graduating at 18 years old. From 14 years old to 18 years old is "full-time" and being totally immersed in the university setting.
Let's say that a kid starts at 14 years old. It's going to take four years, if they go full time, and they manage to get all the classes they're supposed to get at the right time and there are no scheduling problems. That's a minimum of four years, no matter what -- unless they want to go more than full time and put in a couple of extra classes per quarter and then maybe they can shave off one or two quarters and graduate just slightly earlier. But, that's a real killer to take more than 20 credit hours per term and it would burn a lot of people out. I wouldn't advise that. So, I'm going to say it's a minimum of four years.
That's 14 years old, plus 4 years -- that puts them at 18 years old going full time. Now, if they go like was said (a few classes, and supervised) ... that's going to add another two more years, at least (if not possibly slightly more). That would put them to 20 years old to graduate.
If they went 1/2 time the entire time (let's say three classes per term, max ...) that would put them out by 8 years. So it would be 14 years old plus 8 years and then you've got graduation at 22 years old.
The more plausible scenario is that they start at 14, go two years at half the load (about three classes) and then step up to perhaps 3/4 load (about four classes) for another one year and then a full load for the remainder, which would take them another 2-1/2 years (graduating at 19-20 years old). Then the one who is watching and supervising them, can step back in increments, as they get older, and the last two years, they can pretty much be on their own (just like a regular university student). But, that's about 5-1/2 year process, doing it that way.
Star Traveler, with all due respect, you seem unable to understand that there are many different paths to success. As we've said again and again, it is COMMON for high school-age students to take dual-credit courses on community college campuses.
Well, first let me say, it it "were not common" -- there wouldn't exist Community Colleges ... LOL ...
It's not that I'm saying that students going to Community Colleges is something uncommon ... I'm just saying that if you want to be "at the top" -- you're not going to go that way.
BUT, for some people, "success" is merely graduating at anything and getting a job. If that's the case, then they're a success ... :-)
With others, they've got higher standards.
But, it's a Bell Curve anyway and you can't expect too many people excelling and doing the best and doing exceedingly well ... not in a typical bell curve. There's going to be fewer and fewer people in that higher and higher success category. It just depends on how high you want to define success, I guess. :-)
I know some parents are just glad to see that their kid made it out of high school ... LOL ...
How about governor of Alaska? ;-)
Well, I think that's one thing that they can't teach you very well in school... which is how to be a poltician and leader. I think there... you've either got it or you don't ...
They may teach political science and study all sorts of things about the political process, but there's an intangible there that makes or breaks a person and I don't think you can get that in any university setting.
In the example I gave, one guy (I grew up with) transferred credits from CC to a university, commuted to the university and entered its work co-op program, and upon graduation, was hired immediately as an aerospace engineer for a space satellite program in the mid-1980's. He had to pass security clearance and all. Starting out at a community college never hurt him. Last I heard, he had his own company.
I did mention Bill Gates who didn't even finish his education ... LOL ...
But, as in all these kinds of cases, that's why they came up with the phrase, "the exception that proves the rule" ... :-)
What you're looking at, in general, is what happens across the board. There are always exceptions in just about any general observation (like I was pointing out with running the red lights). I could probably point some guy out who did just fine running all the red lights he could -- but that's not a general rule that I would advise others to follow.
And so, again, I'm talking in the aggregate here and what is the best way to go about it.
Think about it another way -- if one ran their entire life on the proposition of being "the exception that proves the rule" -- I would probably give you a guarantee that this is the kind of a person who is waiting for a disaster to happen in their life ... :-)
Well, no, that's not true. There are daytime events held on campus at universities that can get very rowdy. The university campus is very different from a CC campus. As I said, a university is like a community in and of itself.
Well, whatever activities can go on in actual university buildings themselves -- I'll guarantee you, I'm not talking about those ... :-)
Those which are on university property and in university buildings, even if rowdy, are a whole lot more safe in terms of what I was talking about (in terms of the danger to this girl) than what goes on elsewhere.
And I think you're confusing the "location" of things happening with the "sub-culture" and "environment" of that age-group from 18-24 years old.
To make it clearer, and as to why stuff going on in campus buildings doesn't make a big difference here, in what I'm saying (and why it's not a matter of being at a Community College, a City University, or a University town -- is when you're talking about drinking going on to the point of people passing out, drugs being passed around and used at parties and intimate sexual behavior going on.
Now, having said this, I know that even in high schools, some of this sub-culture mentality (and behavior) goes on there, and right on high school grounds. What I'm saying is that if this is going on in high schools, on their own property -- what happens when kids can get off school property, at a university (when they are on their own time and have blocks of discretionary time available to them, and can get away from school buildings) -- you're going to have trouble there -- especially with a 13-14 year old girl who ends up mixing in that kind of sub-culture. You never want to put a 13-14 year old girl in that situation. And neither a boy, but for a girl, it would be especially dangerous.
That's why I would never put that girl of 13-14 years old in that kind of environment (of that kind of sub-culture and activity. This stuff is going on whether it's a student at Community College, a student at a City University or a student in a University town.
I would only do, as that mother did, when she dropped off the kid, waited until class was over and picked the kid back up again, being there all the time.
By age 18, she would be in the second half of her sophomore year.
But, that's what I was saying, though. By "18 years old" -- then she's age-appropriate for handling it herself ... :-)
Not at 13-14 years old... and not without direct and immediate supervision, with someone dropping her off and picking her up and being right there in case anything were to go wrong or happen.
And taking CC classes during the high school years is exactly what college recruiters are telling homeschooled students to do now.
I can understand why they would say that... it's for them to prove that they "can hack it" in a setting like that, instead of what goes on in home-schooling. It's a different environment than homeschooling would be. And sometimes those professors can be antagonistic to you and they don't know you.
But, as I said up above, that's not what I was talking about. I already agreed that the mother who took her kids to class, waited for them, and picked them back up again was doing the right thing and that's the only way I would ever let some 13-14 year old girl do any kind of class in any situation like that (any institution of higher education).
I'll summarize what I've been saying from the beginning (but not about whether someone should pick a Community College or some four-year university, as that was a side issue and it wasn't relevant (as far as I was concerned) in regards to what I was saying about this 13-14 year old girl.
I was saying that no 13-14 year old girl is equipped and ready and able to handle the environment of going to a university and getting her four-year degree. I don't care how well-adjusted she may seem and/or how socially aware/capable she may seem ... she's not going to be able to hold her own -- in a situation with a lot of other guys there, from 18-24 years old, especially with that kind of sub-culture and mentality that we see going on these days in that age-group.
That's been my point from the beginning and I think anyone who would do that to a girl of 13-14 years old is stupid.
And, to clarify again, I'm not talking about the mother who supervised and dropped off and picked up her kid, and was there all the time, until they got home. That was with limited classes and it was closely supervised. That's the only thing I would ever think was allowable.
Again, I repeat, this girl's parents probably will supervise her as closely as she needs to be, just as 13yo community college students are where I live.
No one said the girl would be left on her own at the campus. And, as we keep pointing out, there are children's programs right on CC campuses today. So, there are children younger than 13 on CC campuses. There are also community college programs for high school students on CC campuses, too. The only difference is that this girl would be in class with mostly older students. So, as I've stated repeatedly, the main concern would be the subject matter being discussed in class.
But, with regard to the girl's safety, the parents probably will pick and choose her classes carefully and supervise closely. So, I don't know why you have a problem with this story.
Now, if they go like was said (a few classes, and supervised) ... that's going to add another two more years, at least (if not possibly slightly more). That would put them to 20 years old to graduate.
You're only repeating what I said in my last post.
The more plausible scenario is that they start at 14, go two years at half the load (about three classes) and then step up to perhaps 3/4 load (about four classes) for another one year and then a full load for the remainder, which would take them another 2-1/2 years (graduating at 19-20 years old).
Again, you're saying pretty much what I said in my last post. And, as I've also stated again and again, a 13yo is merely building college credit toward a degree during the "high school years." Some might take a heavier courseload and complete two years or even four by age 18. But, as I keep saying, they don't have to. They can take their time because they're starting so young.
I said: "it is COMMON for high school-age students to take dual-credit courses on community college campuses."
You said: it it "were not common" -- there wouldn't exist Community Colleges ... LOL
I think you might not know what "dual credit" means. It means, when the student takes a CC course, the credit earned is applied toward BOTH a high school diploma AND a college degree. So, for example, say you need two mathematics courses for your high school diploma... You could take those courses at a CC, and the credit would count toward your diploma AND a degree.
So, a homeschooled student could use those courses as his or her high school courses and still bank the credit toward college. Get it now?
There are many other options, too. The students could take CLEP tests showing that they're proficient in a subject, and some colleges and universities will give credit for certain CLEP tests. Also, many colleges and universities offer online courses, too. For all we know, this 13yo girl might be able to take many of her courses online, only going to campus once in awhile.
again, I'm talking in the aggregate here and what is the best way to go about it.
SO AM I. This is the best way for a HOMESCHOOLED student to go about it.
Even if you believe starting at a CC and transferring the credit would hurt someone's chances at success, you can't possibly believe that someone starting college courses at age 13 and then transferring to a university at 17 or 18 is going to hurt that person's chances.
You may have missed it, but there are stories of 13 year-olds GRADUATING from universities. Yes, those students are exceptions to the rule, and it's not the road I would have my own children take. But, this 13yo girl might be the exception, too. Whatever the situation, I would assume that her parents would make sure she was watched over carefully. So, you shouldn't have an issue with this story at all.
Again, I repeat, this girl's parents probably will supervise her as closely as she needs to be, just as 13yo community college students are where I live.
As I said, I didn't have a problem with the supervision that was done as noted in Post #125 ...
That's not the problem I was talking about, it's what I said up above in the last post ...
Now, having said this, I know that even in high schools, some of this sub-culture mentality (and behavior) goes on there, and right on high school grounds. What I'm saying is that if this is going on in high schools, on their own property -- what happens when kids can get off school property, at a university (when they are on their own time and have blocks of discretionary time available to them, and can get away from school buildings) -- you're going to have trouble there -- especially with a 13-14 year old girl who ends up mixing in that kind of sub-culture. You never want to put a 13-14 year old girl in that situation. And neither a boy, but for a girl, it would be especially dangerous.
That's why I would never put that girl of 13-14 years old in that kind of environment (of that kind of sub-culture and activity. This stuff is going on whether it's a student at Community College, a student at a City University or a student in a University town.
I would only do, as that mother did, when she dropped off the kid, waited until class was over and picked the kid back up again, being there all the time.
No one said the girl would be left on her own at the campus.
It was definitely stated that someone that age would be socially capable of handling that sort of thing and would be the equivalent of those 18-24 year old, in their social abilities -- and that they could do well with adults. And in fact, it was said that they would probably do so well, that those older college students would actually listen to them and respect them. It was stated that this was because homeschooled kids are like that.
I disagreed and said that no one should put a 13-14 year old girl in that kind of university environment and have her go through that and graduate in four years. There's no way I would do that -- no way at all.
But, as I said, if it was not that type of situation, but rather with the strict supervision as noted in Post #125, and with a very few classes so that someone could drop them off for each class and pick them up and wait for them while they were in class -- that's a different situation and one that would be suitable.
And, as we keep pointing out, there are children's programs right on CC campuses today.
I don't have any problem with that -- per the strict supervision as noted in Post #125, and with a very few classes so that someone could drop them off for each class and pick them up and wait for them while they were in class. That's never been the issue for me.
But, with regard to the girl's safety, the parents probably will pick and choose her classes carefully and supervise closely. So, I don't know why you have a problem with this story.
I have no idea what the parents of this kid will do, but what I do know is that I don't have a problem with the kind of strict supervision as noted in Post #125 -- where someone would drop them off for each class and pick them up and wait for them while they were in class.
And as I said just a few paragraphs up above, I've noted what the problem is that I have.
You're only repeating what I said in my last post.
I've pointed out on that issue that they are no longer doing what I had a complaint about -- in regards to a 13-14 year old girl going to university and graduating four years later at 18.
Thus when saying that they would graduate at 20, and would have done so, starting off with strict supervision, as I've noted in Post #125 ... that fits in with what I said in regards to the fact that the person would be "age-appropriate" at that stage of the game -- whereas the 13-14 year old girl would not be age-appropriate (doing that at 13-14 years old and graduating at 18) and it would not be the thing I would do.
Again, you're saying pretty much what I said in my last post. And, as I've also stated again and again, a 13yo is merely building college credit toward a degree during the "high school years." Some might take a heavier courseload and complete two years or even four by age 18. But, as I keep saying, they don't have to. They can take their time because they're starting so young.
The point to that is that they are not doing what I had the complaint about. They start off with the strict supervision as I've noted in Post #125, then they advance up into less supervision and then they are "age-appropriate" for the setting that they are in.
As I said, that wasn't the problem I was talking about.
The problem was that when someone says that they are socially capable to hold their own with 18-24 year olds, because of being home-schooled and being very capable of interacting with adults and are the equivalent of those 18-24 year olds and one thinks that this 13-14 year old can go for her four-year degree and finish early at 18 years old -- that's the problem I have.
I think you might not know what "dual credit" means. It means, when the student takes a CC course, the credit earned is applied toward BOTH a high school diploma AND a college degree. So, for example, say you need two mathematics courses for your high school diploma... You could take those courses at a CC, and the credit would count toward your diploma AND a degree.
So, a homeschooled student could use those courses as his or her high school courses and still bank the credit toward college. Get it now?
It's not that I don't know -- it's just not relevant to the issue of a 13-14 year old going to university and getting her four-year degree at 18 ...
So, it's of no consequence to what I was saying ... :-)
SO AM I. This is the best way for a HOMESCHOOLED student to go about it.
It didn't sound to me like talking about it in the aggregate... it appeared to me to be the "exception that proves the rule" ... :-)
Even if you believe starting at a CC and transferring the credit would hurt someone's chances at success, you can't possibly believe that someone starting college courses at age 13 and then transferring to a university at 17 or 18 is going to hurt that person's chances.
No, I think you missed what I said about "success" ... as I was saying some people define "success" in different ways ... some parents think that they've got a "success" if their kid merely graduates from high school ... LOL ...
You may have missed it, but there are stories of 13 year-olds GRADUATING from universities. Yes, those students are exceptions to the rule, and it's not the road I would have my own children take.
There's only one way I would ever have that done, if it were me, otherwise, it's idiotic. I would make sure that the child, who was actually "graduating" at 13 years old (from university) was accompanied by someone at all times, in all classes and in all labs and in every activity there. They are not capable of handling that environment without strict supervision.
But, this 13yo girl might be the exception, too. Whatever the situation, I would assume that her parents would make sure she was watched over carefully. So, you shouldn't have an issue with this story at all.
Once again on the "exception" versus the "aggregate" ... it might be the exception that someone can run red lights in their car for years and not have a major accident -- but that's not what I would recommend, even if I thought they "could be an exception". I would tell them that they are an "absolute idiot" for thinking to even try it ... LOL ...
So, if this 13-14 year old girl is thought to be the "exception" in that she can handle things at university and finish her degree at 18 years old -- I would say that those parents are idiots for thinking so.
You might as well send your 13-14 year old daughter to a bar, thinking she will be the "exception" and not run into trouble in that environment. LOL ...
And while I can see a parent having a 13-14 year old girl taking a couple of classes and strictly supervising her and dropping her off and picking her up for every class and every lab and activity and being there onsite while waiting -- and that being okay -- I can't see that parents would actually do that with a 13-14 year old going to university full-time and graduating at 18. Now, if they say they will do that (as in Post #125) for all classes, with her going there full-time, then that would be okay. But, I haven't seen that to be the case.
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