All I hear from Colofornian and those like him is about some evil, vile acts of some Mormons or people who might be Mormon, but never about the evil, vile acts about any Traditional/Biblical/Evangelical/Fundamental/Orthodox Christians.
It just seems to me, and I could be mistaken here, that Colofornian is not worried in the slightest about “true” Christians© like him, rather it’s about us Mormons. He must believe that his house is already in order, without fault or sin since I never hear him worrying about it. Well...that or he’s just trying to distract attention away from the evilness and vileness of those who claim to be “true” Christians© like him.
I just find it rather humorous when he posts things about a Mormon or somebody from Mormon territory and is assumed to be Mormon, and tries to bring it out as a national problem, yet he lives on the other side of the curtain, telling us all to not worry about those behind the curtain.
Personally, I think that it’s just him trying to scare people away from Mormonism and into the arms of his brand of Christianity, yet the acts mentioned in those posts are also do everyday by members of “true” Christianity©.
Well, it could be that, but there are those who believe that once a person is saved and becomes a “true” Christian©, that person, no matter how vile his sins are afterward, he is still saved in the loving arms of the Lord, so it’s not important if a “true” Christian© commits such acts, so they should be ignored.
You made some good points then: Well, it could be that, but there are those who believe that once a person is saved and becomes a “true” Christian©, that person, no matter how vile his sins are afterward, he is still saved in the loving arms of the Lord, so it’s not important if a “true” Christian© commits such acts, so they should be ignored.
And I want to add, not this again.
My goodness you are just stuck on the same refrain. It matters not a whit that your assumptions of unbridled sin committed by those who are born again with out consequences is wrong. It matters not a whit that you have been given reasons why your assumption is wrong, you just continue to repeat it.
As I have said before I do not believe you are actually interested in a dialog but only interested in formulating your next question/charge against those who are born again, so because of that there is no point in continuing any attempt at a dialog with you.
You know, Urroner, I'm only a ping away. If you want to know what I believe, ask me! (You don't have to assume away and start guessing and start imposing upon me what I believe). You don't have to gossip about me (you spoke to svcw about me without copying me on the ping)
But, no, Urroner, I don't subscribed to "once saved, always saved" for everybody. I know on Jesus' part, indeed we are secure in Him from His side (John 10). And I know prodigals return. But I also know there's a point of no return for some.
Personally, I think that it’s just him trying to scare people away from Mormonism and into the arms of his brand of Christianity, yet the acts mentioned in those posts are also do everyday by members of “true” Christianity©.
There ya go again, trying to speak on my behalf as to what my motivations are. (What? Did I hire you as my spokesman?) Do you enjoy reading my mind? Remember, Urroner, given that Mormons are 2% of the American population, and that those who "claim" to be Christian can be up to 75% of the population, you would need to come up with a scandal ratio of 35 to 38 times re: so-called "Christians" to match what these media outlets are revealing about the "living testimonies" of Mormons.
You won't be able to find that ratio, Urroner. Not in your wildest dreams. We're seeing, "Ye shall know them by their fruit" lived out. (Of course, there are "tares" in all religious bodies...but "tares" alone cannot explain what we're seeing in Mormonism on a massive ratio scale)
I just find it rather humorous when he posts things about a Mormon or somebody from Mormon territory and is assumed to be Mormon, and tries to bring it out as a national problem, yet he lives on the other side of the curtain, telling us all to not worry about those behind the curtain.
Now, you are downright misrepresenting my words in my last post. "Worry" isn't a Christian trait; so if I'm encouraging people not to worry, it's because it isn't Christian to do so. But that doesn't mean we aren't to be concerned about "sin in the camp." Of course we are. And I said so in the last post. I thanked you for bringing to the attention the first example you gave. And I said judgment begins in the household of God.
It just seems to me, and I could be mistaken here, that Colofornian is not worried in the slightest about “true” Christians© like him, rather it’s about us Mormons. He must believe that his house is already in order, without fault or sin since I never hear him worrying about it.
You are mistaken in thinking I am not concerned (but yes, I am not "worried" -- as I said, worry is of the enemy, not of God). Think about it for a moment, Urroner. If you had serious sin in your household, would you put an ad in the local paper about it? Or would you go direct to the person and try to solve it that way? So because I choose to deal direct with that person or church body, you falsely accuse me of this?
Secondly, where's your consistency on this? Do I accuse you and other Mormons of what you just accused me of just because I NEVER see you or other Mormons post these scandals on FR?
What if I did what you just did? What if I said: Well, Lds FReepers are not worried in the slightest about “true” Mormons© like them...They must believe that their house is already in order, without fault or sin since I never hear them worrying about it???
So, then, Urroner, if that's your standard, when are YOU going to start getting on your own case & other Mormons' cases since they seem to be pretty comfy with all the scandals going on around them? Where's your call for Lds reformation, Urroner, if that is what you are judging me on?
Me? I told you in my last post there is great need for reformation & renewal & revitalization in the Lord's church. Can we get that same admission from your lips re: the Mormon church? (Yes or no?)
Why is it that the most common responses we get from Mormons about Mormon scandals is not about how horrible it is, but instead they instead attack the messengers?
Where's the call for reformation?
Where's the call for renewal?
Where's the call for revitalization?
The Lord's church needs it. I confess it! I stress it!
What about rampant and scandalous sin in the Mormon camp? Why do Mormons think they need to hide this sin? To duck under some PR banner?
Why the double standards, Urroner? Why are you accusing something that even you & your fellow Mormons don't do? You get on my case for not exposing sin in the Christian camp (not even knowing how I respond to it) -- and yet where are the Mormon FReepers posting threads about scandalous sin in the Mormon camp? Where are they commenting about these threads in admitting and calling for reform and renewal?
MIA.
So until I see that, stop the hyprocrisy. Up until now, I have not accused Mormons openly of ignoring these scandalous sins. (Unlike you, I have not gone on the offense about this). So don't take these comments out of context: I only bring it up because you accuse me of these very things I haven't seen you or other Lds do.
IF YOU THINK I SHOULD BE MORE FORWARD ABOUT THE 'SIN IN THE CAMP' OF CHRISTIANS, THEN, PLEASE, I SIMPLY REQUEST THAT YOU SET THE EXAMPLE FOR ME; START POSTING THREADS ABOUT LDS SCANDALS.
(Otherwise, Urroner, if you are asking me to do something you are not willing to do yourself, or that you're not asking other Mormons do, let's see, how shall I say this politely: Shut your mouth)
It just seems to me...
and I could be mistaken here...
I just find it rather humorous....
Well, it could be...
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).