So sorry. Carry on. ;)
Posted on 12/26/2009 9:43:36 AM PST by wintertime
I’d spend $600 and get a Kel Tec SU-16 rifle. Reliable, gas-piston based, light (5 pounds or less - half the weight of an AR), and made in the USA. Save the extra money for a dozen PMAGs and 500 rounds of ammunition!
OK, I don’t get it. I have never been remotely tempted to buy anything that says Kel Tec on it because I tend to buy quality and believe that with firearms, you get what you pay for. There is a reason that Kel Tec products are cheap and it is not the extra quality that goes into them. Personall, I would much rather pay $7-800 for a DPMS or Double Star AR-15 than save a few bucks buying a Kel Tec.
Have you ever used a Kel Tec? I own three of their firearms, and all have been 100% reliable. I wish I could say the same about my Ruger SP101, my Springfield XD, and my Mossberg Maverick 88 - all have gone back to the factory for service. The designs are good enough that Ruger copied a Kel Tec for their LCP.
Kel Tecs are simply reliable, well-built firearms. You don’t get all the butter-smooth actions and exotic, hand-set beds for your rifles, but you get a firearm that will run and run and run and do so with very good accuracy.
Yes, you do get what you pay for; in the case of more ARs, you’re paying a LOT for a name, a lot for big aluminum toolings, and a lot because they can charge a lot (perceived value). I know my S&W Sigma 9 has been 100% reliable and people constantly put it down because it’s a cheap Smith & Wesson (you can get them for $249 new). Price goes up for more than just quality of the item - look at high-priced cars, watches, or pens for an example!
All I know is that when I go out shooting with my buddies who have DMPS, Colt, and Rock River AR-15s they tend to jam a lot more than I do (which is never), they’re really not that more accurate than I am, my chamber is a LOT cleaner at the end of a 300 shot day, and my rifle is half the weight (not an issue at the range, but if we’re hiking 5 miles, saving 5 pounds is very nice).
Yup - she did specify: "in the ....event of civil unrest".
Which could be caused by any number of events - most of which may make civilian ammo scarce.
While not the ideal firearm for "home-protection", it can serve that purpose, as well as disperse a crowd, hunt for food (in a pinch), and go on the offensive (also in a pinch) along with neighbors, many of whom probably also own AR-15s.
There really are no "one-size-fits-all" firearms, but an AR can fill many different uses "in-a-pinch" (and one way or another, there will ALWAYS be NATO ammo available when most others get scarcer).
I have different firearms for different functions, but if I was forced to choose just one of them, it would be my AR.
(assuming there is one or more fighting handguns already possession)
1. 12 ga pump shotgun (Rem870 or Mossberg 500 series), 18-20 inch smooth bore with or w/o rifle sights-a bead will do just fine with extended mag tube (6 or so capacity), low recoil (several makers) 00 buckshot and 1&1/8 ounce #6 2&2/4 inch non magnum shells. Loaded bird, bird, bird, buck, buck, buck, bolt closed on empty chamber, trigger cocked (so the action lock must be actuated in order to load-for the kids safety) Accessories-side saddle shell holder and or speed loader tubes-forget the sling with shell loops-makes the thing wave like a tree when it is swinging around all filled up and tangles easily on stuff. Possibly a red-dot sight ( I recommend at Trijicon reflex-self luminous, no batteries to fail and rugged).
2. AR or similar lightweight carbine- (my choice is a 16” CAR 15 with standard fixed carry handle sights and a trijicon reflext mounted on a scout cantilever mount) 50 grain Horn V max ammo and or 55 grain FMJs-trust me, they kill all out of proportion and are both soft-armor cabable, yet the Vmax is not too tough as to be extremely pentrative in the house.
Avoid slings and all the myriad of accessories for either-more to fail/manipulate etc when seconds count.
Get the training and make your plan, include everyone in teh househould-make it SOP (standard operating procedure) duress words, sinlge word key terms/alerts-do dry runs using possible scenarios knowing that every plan usually must be modified once contact is made...
Do not talk much about your plans/weapons to neighbors-they are not likley to die for you if under duress....
Insure your weapons are available when you are present, but secure when you are not.
Install a monitored home alarm system (I like the ones with key fob remote controls-can call 911/FD/Ambulance w/o a phone, get one for every adult).
Look to your perimeter-cut brush, hedges, fences should be transparent, add lights & perhaps low cost day/night cameras and a monitor DVD recorder. Security is a system, not a gun. Best;
MOLON LABE
No and I do not plan to do so. I am glad that you enjoy your rifle and are happy with it but there is just no way that I am believing than a Kel Tec is a better buy than a quality AR. When all of your buddies that own DMPS, Colt, and Rock River AR-15s sell them and buy a Kel Tec after seeing yours in action, let me know.
So sorry. Carry on. ;)
Why do you keep describing the Kel-tec as “half the weight”?
How much does it weigh, and how much does a typical AR-15 weigh?
Because it is...;)
How much does it weigh
4.5 pounds. Note that is with two empty 10 round magazines in the stock as well.
how much does a typical AR-15 weigh?
The 16" barreled, 5.56mm DPMS is about 8 pounds, and the 16" Rock River Arms is about 7.5 pounds. The Ruger SR556 is 8 pounds. Most AR-15 builds are in the 7.5 to 9 pound range.
The little KT is really a VERY light rifle! Lighter than most 22LR semi-auto rifles.
That isn’t the model that you own though, you were pushing the SU-16.
You own the SU-16 which weighs 5.01 pounds,
my Bushmaster weighs about 7.2 pounds.
If the Kel-tec weighs from 4.5 to 5 pounds and the AR-15 weighs from 5.5 to less than 8.0 pounds why do you keep saying that it weighs twice as much.
It sounds to me as though it would be as little as a few ounces to about a three pound difference.
OK, then 60% of the weight of a typical AR (given they spread from 7.2 to 9.5 pounds, average would be 8.35 pounds). Compared to my friend’s Rock River, I’m at 5 pounds, he’s at a measured 9.2 pounds, so I’m at 54% of his weight - close enough to half. I can carry my rifle and two, 30 round loaded magazines (and two 10 round, unloaded magazines) in the weight of a typical, unloaded AR weapon.
Happy now? Regardless, it’s considerably lighter than an AR. No disputing that, is there? Should we also get pedantic and point out that it’s not 0.223” (5.56mm), since the bullet itself measures 0.224” (5.7mm)?
This is more accurate, if that is your intention.
“It sounds to me as though it would be as little as a few ounces to about a three pound difference between the weights.”
Can you show me a 5 lb, 3 ounce AR? Otherwise that statement is not correct.
Furthermore, some AR variants (such as the Rock River Varmint EOP) can weigh 10 pounds unloaded. Thus, if we're going to be correct, the upper limit should be "about a 5 pound difference".
I mean, in the interest of complete accuracy, of course...
I don’t think that a massive 24” Bull barrelled AR-15 weighing 10 pounds was part of the consideration when everyone was addressing their preference for the AR-15 over your Kel-tec, what does the 24” Bull barrelled Kel-tec weigh by the way?
You were trying to tell the people that your SU-16 was half the weight of AR-15s and you kept repeating that, the truth is that the difference is really from several ounces to about 3 pounds.
Since the AR-15 is such a wonderful and quality weapon, there is a huge variety of models and manufacturers and variations and costs. You were misleading the woman that posted this thread by telling her the choice was between a 5 pound 5.56, and a ten pound 5.56.
My guess is that most of us have AR-15s that are about 2 pounds to 3 pounds heavier than your Kel-tec, The vast majority of us prefer the AR-15 to your Kel-tec, and I advise wintertime to pursue her instinct to purchase the AR-15.
I see. Your problem is with my rounding to about half the weight, but you're comfortable repeating several ounces? Can you show any ARs that are under 6 pounds? Or are you stretching the truth saying "several ounces" when you mean a few pounds?
Look, you're offended that an alternative that's lighter and lower cost exists. Fine. If you want to be pedantic and nit-picky, fine. So back up your claim of a few or several ounces difference. Please.
Here is a 5.5 pound Bushmaster.
http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_carbon15_AZ-C15M4PRE.asp
The Bushmaster Lady comes in at under 4 pounds. There are so many AR-15 variations that I really don't know all the selections out there, it is so massively popular and favored that it would take a lot of research to see every model available.
And the Sportical the original poster was asking about is over 6 pounds...
Seems you like to be picky, that’s fine...
So it is a 6.3 pound AR-15 and the Kel-tec SU-16 you were pushing is 5.01 pounds.
I don’t see that much difference. Now she knows that she can get a AR-15 at 5.5 pounds if weight is that important.
It is nice to know one’s options.
FWIW - I once owned a .357 mag PISTOL that weighed 4 lbs! It was like shooting a 22...
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