Posted on 09/06/2009 12:03:02 PM PDT by EveningStar
"On the scoreboard in right field, it is 9:46 p.m. in the City of the Angels, Los Angeles, California. And a crowd of 29,139 [has seen] the only pitcher in baseball history to hurl four no-hit, no-run games. ... And now he caps it. On his fourth no-hitter, he made it a perfect game."
The date was Sept. 9, 1965, and it seemed appropriate that Vin Scully, the best baseball broadcaster since World War II, was telling the world that Sandy Koufax, the most dominant pitcher of that period, had achieved the ultimate...
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
I think Randy Johnson, who invites a lot of comparisons to Ryan as an intimidating strikeout pitcher, is clearly better than Ryan.You'll get no argument from me.
That was 1962. Pete came out of the bullpen in relief. I was at that game.
I generally speaking agree with James, and he’s dead on about Ryan. Ryan is in the HoF in the “Freak of Nature” category, not the “great pitcher” category. James also says Seaver was the best pitcher since WWII, although I’m not sure if Clemens was done yet at the time or if he did enought to pass him.
In the original Historical Abstract, he had an article about Drysdale that talked about how he paled in comparison to Koufax, especially in 1-run games. But James points out that nobody could match Koufax in games with limited run support. From ‘62-’65, with 5 or more runs to work with, Drysdale was 23-1, Koufax 18-1. Here is the rest of the chart:
Run Support (Koufax record, Drysdale record)
4 (8-2, 7-5)
3 (9-0, 4-6)
2 (6-3, 3-6)
1 (3-1, 1-8)
Basically, to beat Koufax, your pitcher better be throwing a shutout.
I saw him pitch twice...he was unreal.....some say the secret to his curve was that he has very long fingers..Leavy’s bio was excellent..probably so because she wasn’t a sports reporter...which is probably why he cooperated with her for the book. BTW,don’t know if you’ve seen/heard all the rumors in NY, that Wilpon will be forced to sell the Mets this fall, because he lost $400-$700 million with Madoff..I sure hope that Sandy wasn’t caught up in that also...
I think you might have gotten a particular stat confused---Koufax with three or less runs to work with in the seasons studied was 18-1, Drysdale 8-20. Koufax's accomplishment is nothing short of stupefying.
As for Seaver v. Clemens, I saw a pretty tight analysis of Clemens's career and I didn't get the impression that he was half as good as Seaver at yanking a team above and beyond its expected performance. As for Nolan Ryan, he was no questions asked a Hall of Famer, but he is, no questions asked, a very overrated pitcher. The overrating only begins with the seven no-hitters. Lots of pitchers have pitched more than one no-hitter and they're not Hall of Famers.
The overrating only continues with the single-season strikeout record. Nolan Ryan pitched nine fewer innings than Sandy Koufax needed to break Bob Feller's former single-season strikeout record (348) . . . and he broke Koufax's record by one K. Koufax pitched 36 fewer innings than Feller did to set the record . . . and Koufax broke Feller's record by 34 strikeouts.
Ryan didn't pitch for as many terrible teams as he's perceived to have pitched, but if you look at his record in the pennant races he was in he's probably more comparable to fellows like Don Drysdale---he pitched like a Hall of Famer here, he pitched like a human pinata there. I'd have to do a more complete analysis than I have time to do here, but I don't have the impression that Nolan Ryan in the pennant races---against the teams his teams most needed to beat to stay in the race or win the pennant; against all contending teams; against either or both down the stretch---was all that much of an improvement over Nolan Ryan out of the pennant races. He has a couple of very impressive postseason performances on his resume---most significantly, the seven-inning relief job he did to nail down the 1969 NLCS, and his mano-a-mano against Dwight Gooden in the 1986 NLCS (in which neither pitcher got the decision despite pitching a game to remember for either man)---but Nolan Ryan's pennant and postseason record isn't exactly a record you could say, without knowing whose record you were reviewing, is a no-questions-asked Hall of Fame record.
I know that you could point these and other things out to Ryanphiles and be hit back at once with, "Eff you! Ryan had the best stuff of all time." That's exactly the point. Great stuff doesn't equal a great pitcher. Lots of pitchers have had "stuff" but it doesn't make them Hall of Famers. Steve Dalkowski may have had the deadliest fastball in baseball history but for an assortment of reasons he never became a great pitcher and, in fact, had his career killed in the crib when he looked on the threshold of making the Orioles at last. (The story I've heard: Dalkowski was haunted when one of his bullets nailed a hitter and injured him severely enough, and when he looked like he was going to make the Orioles out of spring training at last, he was haunted enough to start trying to harness that heat in earnest . . . and ended up blowing his elbow out.) I never saw a better curve ball than Dwight Gooden's, except maybe Koufax and Bert Blyleven (I never got to see Carl Erskine's curve, an overhand pure drop a la Koufax and Gooden, but people who were there say it was as voluptuous as they came, and Erskine's chronic shoulder trouble---borne of being forced to pitch through an early injury---may have kept him from becoming a Hall of Famer or close enough thereto), but for reasons having nothing to do with his substance abuse problems and everything to do with a coaching staff that forgot about trying to fix what wasn't broken in the first place in spring 1986, shattering the kid's confidence and, in time, his arm and shoulder, Dwight Gooden shook out as just shy of the Hall of Fame pitcher he should have been.
Then you can point to a small truckload of pitchers who have about as much "stuff" as an arthritic charwoman but became great pitchers without a lot of "stuff." By right, Whitey Ford should have been driven into the wall with the junk he threw . . . but he knew the strike zone, he knew the hitters against whom he pitched, and he knew what he was doing on the mound. Tom Glavine never had much in the way of "stuff," if you didn't count that murderous changeup, but he had poise, he had brains, and he knew what he was doing out there.
Sandy Koufax had stuff to burn and knew what he was doing out there. So did Juan Marichal, so did Tom Seaver, so did Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux, so did Steve Carlton and Bob Gibson, so did Warren Spahn and Bob Feller, so did Curt Schilling (yes, he's a Hall of Famer in waiting) and Ferguson Jenkins and Jim Palmer.
RE: I think you might have gotten a particular stat confused-—Koufax with three or less runs to work with in the seasons studied was 18-1, Drysdale 8-20.
I re-checked the numbers, and Koufax was 18-4 with 3 or less runs to work with. The 18-1 was with 5+ runs, as was Drysdale’s 23-1. (They both won the games they were supposed to win. Koufax won the rest of them, too.)
I do have the HoF book, but it has been a while since I cracked it open. Still waiting for Ron Santo to go in.
BTW,don’t know if you’ve seen/heard all the rumors in NY, that Wilpon will be forced to sell the Mets this fall, because he lost $400-$700 million with Madoff..I sure hope that Sandy wasn’t caught up in that also...
As it happens, both Fred Wilpon and Sandy Koufax lost money through Bernie Madoff, Wilpon quite a chunk more. The Madoff disaster has throttled the Mets in terms of what they can afford to invest in, among other things, replenishing their farm system, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the rumours prove true and Wilpon, who's been a decent owner (especially once Nelson Doubleday was out of the picture) when all is said and done, ends up having to sell the team. From what little I know, Koufax will probably come out of the mess in decent shape; this is a man who's usually been very smart with his money.
A story about Koufax I still love: A few years ago, he attended the annual Baseball Assistance Team dinner in New York and---completely out of character---asked for and got the microphone when all the presentations were over and done with. When he took the mike, he said, "I'm not just saying this because he's my friend for over fifty years, but I'd like to know why Fred Wilpon is the only owner in baseball here tonight."
Koufax---a six-letter word for class.
Another Koufax story I've loved: When he was in Atlanta for that All-Century Team ceremony during the postseason, he stood at the steps of the dugout when his name was announced---he got, arguably, the most thunderous ovation of the night---he didn't come out to the stage on the infield right away. He lingered until Warren Spahn's name was announced, then offered Spahn an arm to help escort Spahn to the stage; the old lefthander was weakened by a series of knee surgeries over recent years. Koufax, in fact, was directly responsible for Spahn being there in the first place: when he was told about the All-Century Team, Koufax fumed when he realised Warren Spahn wasn't even on the ballot, and threatened to boycott the event unless Spahn got on the ballot. Since MasterCard (the mastermind of the idea) wasn't about to get into a tangle with Sandy Koufax, who doesn't like to blow his own horn but will get the iron in his spine when he thinks something isn't quite right, they acceeded.
I still say an All-Century Team with Nolan Ryan but without Juan Marichal was a farce. And I'd bet you Sandy Koufax would agree. In the years following the incident, John Roseboro not only accepted a personal apology from Juan Marichal and not only did the two men become friends but, when Marichal was snubbed in his first year of Hall of Fame eligibility, Roseboro himself took up the drumbeat and campaigned actively for Marichal's enshrinement. Marichal thanked Roseboro when he was finally inducted and, in fact, was one of the last men to see John Roseboro alive when Roseboro took ill a few years ago.
At Roseboro's funeral, that was Marichal nodding with a stricken smile when Sandy Koufax, delivering one of the eulogies for his old catcher, looked to him and said softly, "Juan, you would have loved pitching to John Roseboro."
(Robert H. Houston / Associated Press / August 22, 1965)
One of the ugliest Dodgers-Giants confrontations ever was when the Giants' Juan Marichal attacked catcher John Roseboro with a bat during a game at Candlestick Park. Marichal accused Roseboro of throwing a ball too close to his head. Sandy Koufax, the pitcher that day, came to his catcher's defense.
* - The game was a series finale between the Dodgers and the Giants; the two teams were going hammer and tong for the National League pennant as it was.
* - The first two games of the set featured a few brushbacks on the part of both sides' pitchers.
* - Marichal, perhaps thinking to send the Dodgers a message in his own right, pushed both Maury Wills and Ron Fairly of the Dodgers off the plate with very tight inside pitching early on.
* - Koufax---who usually didn't believe in intimidation by anything other than sheer pitching domination---actually answered in kind by a) brushing back Willie Mays; and, b) brushing Marichal himself back when Marichal batted during the fateful at-bat.
* - Roseboro took it on himself to decide that Koufax hadn't sent Marichal a message sufficient enough. He let a Koufax pitch sail through his hands and behind the plate, enabling him to retrieve the ball and send the message himself. Read very carefully (I know of whence I speak: I've seen a film of that game, including the entire Marichal at-bat): John Roseboro's return throw to Sandy Koufax nearly took Juan Marichal's head off . . . and Marichal himself was still facing the mound and the field in the box when Roseboro made the throw; Marichal never saw the ball coming at him, and only saw it zip right past the side of his head.
* - Marichal---by all accounts a fun-loving, even-tempered man (he was renowned for such practical jokes as loading perfume bottles with stink bombs, if he caught one in a teammate's locker, say as a gift intended for said teammate's wife, or girl friend; his wife once said he never woke up in a foul mood in the morning)---would have to have been superhuman to have kept his temper after nearly being knocked unconscious by a hard throw past his head from behind. He turned around and screamed at Roseboro, basically, "Why did you do that?!? Why did you do that?!?"
* - Read this very carefully, too: John Roseboro had pulled his heavy catcher's mask off and still had it in his hand as he advanced toward Marichal. Roseboro also had some martial arts knowledge, and most players around the National League probably knew it. He was not an unarmed man advancing on the man whose head he'd just come thatclose to taking off with a return throw delivered way more forcefully than any catcher would throw back to his pitcher.
* - Nobody, not even Juan Marichal himself, would excuse what happened next, but Marichal most likely poleaxed Roseboro out of self-defence. A man advancing on another man wielding a very heavy catcher's mask cocked as if ready to use it as a weapon, and with some martial arts knowledge to boot, is not a defenceless man.
* - Everything else you heard or read of the brawl was true: both dugouts and bullpens emptying, Sandy Koufax charging toward the plate to try to get the bat out of Marichal's hands, another Giant (it turned out to be infielder Tito Fuentes, who said later he was trying to break up the brawl) waved a bat at the melee, Willie Mays plowing through the mob to get Roseboro out of the pileup and toward medical attention, Koufax shaken up enough by the incident to lose his mound composure (and surrender a three-run bomb to Mays shortly after order of a sort was restored and the game continued), Marichal suspended two weeks and fined $10,000 for the incident, the Dodgers protesting that Marichal hadn't been punished enough.
* - As things turned out, Marichal and the Giants had gotten punished plenty over the incident: Marichal, their best pitcher, missed two starts during his suspension. The Dodgers won the pennant by two games over the Giants, Sandy Koufax himself pitching what proved the pennant clincer on two days' rest.
I loved the "Weepy Cheeseball Organ Music" and the segment about Don'T! LOL
You're getting VERY good.
How long "Duz" it take you to write the script? It's so involved!
Your show was great last night! I loved the "Weepy Cheeseball Organ Music" and the segment about Don'T! LOL
That segment about Don't was part and parcel of a full-tilt satire of an actual 1952 script from the last days of the radio version of The Guiding Light, which is going off the air for good (barring an eleventh-hour change of heart on CBS's part) a week from Friday. The soap in the time I hit (well, I'm a radio show, you wanted I should hit the television version?) was sponsored by Procter & Gamble, who hawked Duz detergent on that show.
You might like to know that the first segment of weepy cheeseball organ music, which was the same as the theme that introduced the satire, was the actual organ theme from the actual Guiding Light of 1952 . . . played backwards! (I have a sound editing program I use that can make a track play backward if I wish.) For the brief bridge between the final scene of the satire and the final parody commercial, and for the full theme to close the segment out, I used the actual Guiding Light theme played straightforwardly.
Notwithstanding, the show would have been even better if I hadn't made an oversight and thrown my regular board operator/announcer that far into the fire after she'd had a four-week absence because of illness. Much the way a pitcher who misses half a season on the DL can't be expected to just go out and get hitters out without some serious bullpen activity, maybe a rehab gig or three in the minors, someone who doubles as your board op and your announcer/sketch co-conspirator can't really be expected just to get in there and do the juggle needed to make my show work right. And she couldn't, just yet. (To be kind, she missed more cues and more script lines than oversleeping passengers miss subways in New York.) That was my fault.
The good news: I actually managed to edit the recording of the show (I get it within half an hour after we're off the air) into what the show should have sounded like, had my board op/announcer been in full fighting shape, so to say.
Here's the repaired recording:
You're getting VERY good.
You're getting very close to getting everywhere flattery will get you, my dear!
How long "Duz" it take you to write the script? It's so involved!
You may or may not believe this, but writing this show is a full-time job.
I really do work about forty hours a week on each week's script. Then, I spend about an hour or two re-editing the material, trimming where I think it's needed, making sure it's not just good material but can be delivered on the air without supplemental oxygen requirements, making sure that the characters in the sketches aren't ruined by lines that might get too big a laugh, and making sure that it can all be delivered deadpan enough (deadpan not being synonymous with monotonous or flat, of course) to emphasise that, with my kind of humour, the target is what's between your ears, not what's between your legs, or what's between your throat and your navel.
After I've finished editing the script, I need to find, edit, and mix my sound choices. Then, we go through a single run-through of the script just for the lines---whether it's monologic, dialogic, or full sketch---before I walk the board operator through the script in terms of the sound interjections or overlays/underlays. That's the only rehearsal I want---I learned a very smart lesson from Goodman Ace, who never liked to rehearse to a fare-thee-well when he was writing and directing Easy Aces from 1930-45: he allowed only one read-through of each script, because he feared anything more and it would kill the humanness of the show, which depended entirely on conversational atmosphere, as though you were eavesdropping on your neighbours.
I'm working on getting my air partner, who had never done radio until we got together but who has a very pleasant voice and a terrific sense of humour, to stop thinking like A Ray. D. Oh. An. Ounce. Her. and just relax and be herself with the material. I have to remind myself the same thing here and there, for that matter, since all my previous radio experience was as a news anchor, and you tend to become An. An. Ounce. Er. of a sort if you're an anchor for any length of time. As I tell her often enough, and she's getting much better (she was exquisite in the Guiding Light parody, and also as the ill-fated contestant when I zapped Cash Cab the week before), I don't want announcers, I want people. That's what makes my humour work best.
Thanks for the new link. I’ll see if I can hear any differences in the changes from what I remember ...of course at 1AM, I’m not sure of anything.
I do realize what goes into this, as I used to write radio and TV commercials. You can tell that your keen writing and editing ability is shining through.
The “weepy cheeseball organ music” was the Guiding Light theme BACKWARDS? HAHAHA! Cool!
Wishing you and your [healthy] partner well. You know I am very, very happy for you!
Thanks for the new link.
*chuckle* It's the only link to the show---I didn't dare send it to MediaFire storage until I'd given it the editing it needed for further consumption by human ears.
I’ll see if I can hear any differences in the changes from what I remember ...of course at 1AM, I’m not sure of anything.
You should hear a major difference---namely, no miscues, no misfired sound, no pregnant pauses, and no accidental reading of the Meaty character's first line by the announcer!
The “weepy cheeseball organ music” was the Guiding Light theme BACKWARDS? HAHAHA! Cool!
You were expecting maybe the theme to Dark Shadows? ;)
I read a book written by a WaPo writer about Sandy Koufax and I liked it. It was a nice read. The other guy I got to wondering how many times did Sandy Koufax go up against Bob Gibson. The last time it happened was in April 1966 and I believe it happened on July 3rd of either ‘64 or ‘63. For the record the Dodgers scored 4 runs in the first inning of off Gibson and won.
please, ryan played 27 years, sandy retired with four in 10 years..., imagine him throwing 27 years...he would have the greatest record ever, plue sandy ended up with more hardware and championships than ryan ever got.....
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