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BRITISH LINER ATHENIA TORPEDOED, SUNK (9/4/39)
Microfiche-New York Times archives, McHenry Library, U.C. Santa Cruz | 9/4/39 | Turner Catledge, Herbert L. Matthews, Otto D. Tolischus, Adolf Hitler, Gaston H. Archambault, Hanson

Posted on 09/04/2009 5:14:01 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson

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TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: milhist; realtime; worldwarii
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To: PzLdr

I was just thumbing through Keegan’s book on WWII and this time frame in particular. He does a great job trying to make sense out of the allied command and control structure. Yikes.


21 posted on 09/04/2009 6:38:00 AM PDT by mainepatsfan
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To: mainepatsfan

Hitler fully intended to attack in the West within a month or two after Poland.But in that two to three month period, he ran into three porblems [other than weather that put the brakes on the attack. First, it took a while to redeploy the Army west [And as a side note the so-called Light divisions were to be converted to panzer divisions]. Second, the Germans had used up almost all their reserves of artillery shells and bombs. More had to be built. And third, the original German plan for Case Yellow fell into Allied hands when a Luftwaffe liaison officer carrying a copy crash landed in Belgium. Those factors, more than the weather prevented an assault on the west in the late Fall/ Winter of 1939.


22 posted on 09/04/2009 6:38:49 AM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: PzLdr
Interestingly enough, if I remember correctly, the Germans tried hush the ATHENIA attack up initially, seizing the U-boat’s log book, ordering the crew to keep quiet, and floating the claim the Brits sunk it.

That's because the German Navy was still being run by officers who respected the rules of war regarding avoidable civilian casualties.

23 posted on 09/04/2009 6:39:00 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

Well the line did what it was supposed to do...unfortunately the Allies assumed the Ardennes forest would accomplish the same thing (at least for tanks at any rate).


24 posted on 09/04/2009 6:39:58 AM PDT by mainepatsfan
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To: mainepatsfan

What book is that, I’m not sure I’m familiar with it.


25 posted on 09/04/2009 6:40:15 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: PzLdr
And third, the original German plan for Case Yellow fell into Allied hands when a Luftwaffe liaison officer carrying a copy crash landed in Belgium

Ironically it did the Germans a favor. Hitler adopted Manstein's plan instead.

26 posted on 09/04/2009 6:42:22 AM PDT by mainepatsfan
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To: wagglebee

The change in that philosophy was brought on, in large part, by the Brits. I think it was 1940, a German U-boat sank a liner or freighter, with a lot of peeople. The commander organized a towing system [on the surface] with life boats, and provided blankets, food, etc. He then headed for South Africa [near the site of the sinking], radioing [in clear], his position, heading, the fact he was towing survivors [He may have been helped by an Italian submarine or two], and requesting aid.

They were attacked by a British Walrus and strafed. the U-boat cut the lines and was forced to dive. After that Doenitz ordered no rescue attempts were to be made.


27 posted on 09/04/2009 6:44:45 AM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: wagglebee

The title is “The Second World War” by John Keegan. Another really good book also by him is “Six Armies in Normandy”.


28 posted on 09/04/2009 6:45:10 AM PDT by mainepatsfan
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To: PzLdr

I believe the freighter was carrying a lot of Italian POW’s as well.


29 posted on 09/04/2009 6:46:37 AM PDT by mainepatsfan
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To: PzLdr

I think I remember reading that.


30 posted on 09/04/2009 6:47:47 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: mainepatsfan

I’ll have to check those out, I’m not familiar with them.

It’s been years since I’ve read any non-fiction books about WWII (I prefer medieval history, the American Revolution through the early Federalist period and the Civil War), but these threads have resparked my interest.


31 posted on 09/04/2009 6:52:44 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: PzLdr
What the Germans had were three critical items that the Allies didn’t: a far superior doctrine/tactical scheme [and better soldiers], a superior air force, schooled in close support for the Army, and as far as weaponry, more anti- tank guns.

...and the concept application of three dimensional maneuver to maximize their combat power. OTOH, the Maginot Line is a lasting tribute to the static thought process of the French at the time. It was an engineering masterpiece and focus of the French army. It cost them dearly.

32 posted on 09/04/2009 6:57:36 AM PDT by TADSLOS (Proud FR Mobster)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Poles report gains? Talk about a delusion

The French military wass called the best by “experts”?

I don’t think I ever heard much about the U-boats operating in the Carribean before.


33 posted on 09/04/2009 7:10:19 AM PDT by GeronL (http://libertyfic.proboards.com)
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To: wagglebee; abb; PzLdr; mainepatsfan
From "Poles Report Gain," images 15-17:

Tell of Fighting on Foe's Soil After Horsemen Retake 2 Towns

Polish aviators smashed two large detachments of German tanks near Czestochowa, it was announced today.

Is Baghdad Bob working out of Warsaw at this point? I thought the Polish air force was about extinct by this point (day 3 of the invasion.)

34 posted on 09/04/2009 7:11:10 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: abb
Goebbels claims that the sinking of the SS Athenia was arranged by Churchill to create an incident between Germany and the United States.

ah noes.. not troofers again!

35 posted on 09/04/2009 7:13:47 AM PDT by GeronL (http://libertyfic.proboards.com)
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To: TADSLOS; PzLdr
What the Germans had were three critical items that the Allies didn’t: a far superior doctrine/tactical scheme [and better soldiers], a superior air force, schooled in close support for the Army, and as far as weaponry, more anti- tank guns.

...and the concept application of three dimensional maneuver to maximize their combat power. OTOH, the Maginot Line is a lasting tribute to the static thought process of the French at the time. It was an engineering masterpiece and focus of the French army. It cost them dearly.

I would suggest the Germans had a much more determined "will to fight" at this time. Hitler was much more committed to his goals than were the allies. The allies at this time perhaps thought that negotiation was a possibility. That really didn't change with the Allies until Churchill became PM.

36 posted on 09/04/2009 7:20:38 AM PDT by abb ("What ISN'T in the news is often more important than what IS." Ed Biersmith, 1942 -)
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To: abb; Homer_J_Simpson
Over Germany... The first attacks by RAF Bomber Command go in against German warships in the Heligoland Bight with 29 Blenheim and Wellington bombers in a daylight raid. The Admiral Scheer is hit three times but the bombs do not explode. The cruiser Emden is damaged by wreckage of a shot-down Blenheim. Of the attacking aircraft, 7 are lost. There is no question at this stage of attacking targets in Germany.

Fat load of good that did huh?

I guess the British forces are in dire need of a build-up

37 posted on 09/04/2009 7:20:41 AM PDT by GeronL (http://libertyfic.proboards.com)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

It wasn’t so much as the Polish Air Force was obliterated as it was that it just wasn’t that big an air force to start with.


38 posted on 09/04/2009 7:24:51 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: GeronL

http://www.deutschland-class.dk/admiral_scheer/admiral_scheer_operation_hist.html

On 4 September the first sirens wailed over Frisia when three Whitley bombers of No. 51 Squadron RAF overflew North Germany dropping leaflets. That same afternoon ten Bristol Blenheim bombers of Nos. 107 and 110 Squadrons approached the Jade estuary with orders to attack any German warships found either in the Schilling roadstead or in harbour at Wilhelmshaven. The aircraft divided into two formations of five, No. 110 Squadron attacking Admiral Scheer. One aircraft obtained three hits with 500 lb bombs, all of which failed to explode and were jettisoned. Shipboard Flak accounted for one bomber. Four of the five Blenheims of the other group were shot down by Flak over Wilhelmshaven, one crashing into the water near the light cruiser Emden which was manoeuvring in harbour, thus occasioning the first Kriegsmarine war dead of the new conflict. At Brunsbüttel, fourteen Wellington bombers from Nos. 9 and 149 Squadrons RAF made an unsuccessful attack on the battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Two British aircraft was shot down by Messerschmitt Bf 109s of JG 77.


39 posted on 09/04/2009 7:33:31 AM PDT by abb ("What ISN'T in the news is often more important than what IS." Ed Biersmith, 1942 -)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Two things for today:

1. The sinking of the Athenia is noted in the press for the tragedy it was. However, unlike the Lusitania in 1915, there is no overwhelming cry of “unfair” over unrestricted submarine warfare. There is no cry that the United States enter the war to address this outrage.

It’s a different war. Indeed; the first direct order from the Chief of Naval Operations to the U.S. Pacific Fleet just two years hence will be: “Commence unrestricted naval and submarine warfare against Japan.”

2. Hitler makes his tour of the battlefield in Poland. One of his stops will be with Heinz Guderian and XIX Panzer Corps tomorrow, as they sweep across northern Poland toward the Narew & Vistula. Here is Guderian’s recount of that visit:

On 5 September our corps had a surprise visit from Adolf Hitler. I met him near Plevno on the Tuchel-Schwetz road, got into his car and drove with him along the line of our previous advance. We passed the destroyed Polish artillery, went through Schwetz, and then, following closely behind our encircling troops, drove to Gaudenz, where he stopped and gazed for some time at the blown bridges over the Vistula. At the sight of the smashed artillery regiment, Hitler had asked me, “Our dive bombers did that?” When I replied, “No, our Panzers!” he was plainly astonished. Between Schwetz and Graudenz those elements of 3 Panzer Division not needed for the encirclement of the Poles were drawn up: these included the 6th Panzer Regiment and the 3rd Armoured Reconnaissance Battalion with my son Jurt. We drove back through parts of 23 and 2 (Motorized) Infantry Divisions. During the drive we discussed at first the course of events in my corps area. Hitler asked about casualties. I gave him the latest figures that I had received, some one hundred and fifty dead and seven hundred wounded for all the four divisions under my command during the Battle of the Corridor. He was amazed at the smallness of these figures and contrasted them with the casualties of his own old regiment, the List Regiment, during the first World War .... I was able to show him that the smallness of our casualties in this battle against a tough and courageous enemy was primarily due to the effectiveness of our tanks. Tanks are a life-saving weapon. The men’s belief in the superiority of their armoured equipment had been greatly strengthened by their successes in the Corridor. The enemy had suffered the total destruction of between two and three infantry divisions and one cavalry brigade. Thousands of prisoners and hundreds of guns had fallen into our hands.


40 posted on 09/04/2009 7:34:53 AM PDT by henkster (The frog has noticed the increase in water temperature)
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