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Wolves Beat Dogs on Logic Test
Live Science ^ | Sep 3, 2009 | Clara Moskowitz

Posted on 09/03/2009 12:49:51 PM PDT by decimon

Wolves do better on some tests of logic than dogs, a new study found, revealing differences between the animals that scientists suspect result from dogs' domestication.

In experiments, dogs followed human cues to perform certain tasks despite evidence they could see suggesting a different strategy would be smarter, while wolves made the more logical choice based on their observations.

In fact, dogs' responses were similar to human infants, who also prioritize following the example of adult humans.

(Excerpt) Read more at livescience.com ...


TOPICS: Pets/Animals
KEYWORDS: dogs; logic; wolves
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To: decimon

So when wolves go to socialism, they get dumber. Humans have the same results.


21 posted on 09/03/2009 1:38:16 PM PDT by U S Army EOD
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To: Varda
BINGO!

Dogs have the higher cognitive ability to glean meanings from abstract gestures, no doubt a trait we bred for over the last 10000 years or so. Chimp and Human infants don't learn the same way, and the Chimp will "out perform" the human infant early on. However, that abstract communication thingy gives the human the long-term edge.

For dogs, those that "figure out" what the human wants are rewarded with a long term survival edge over the wild wolf.

They are solving two different problems. The wolf is solving the "situational problem" at hand, while the dog is solving the "what does the Man want Me to do here?" problem.
22 posted on 09/03/2009 1:43:23 PM PDT by Rebel_Ace (Tags?!? Tags?!? We don' neeeed no stinkin' Tags!)
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To: Truthsearcher


23 posted on 09/03/2009 1:50:50 PM PDT by Slings and Arrows (Crazy is the new sane.)
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To: decimon

wolves still fall for the oldest trick in the book
24 posted on 09/03/2009 1:55:15 PM PDT by ari-freedom (Fiscal conservatism without social conservatism is dead.)
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To: Springman; AnAmericanMother
Hey kanawa, you know who has the doggie ping list?

I believe AnAmericanMother had it last.

25 posted on 09/03/2009 1:55:49 PM PDT by kanawa
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To: decimon
HUH!


26 posted on 09/03/2009 2:01:16 PM PDT by Young Werther ("Quae Cum Ita Sunt - Julius Caesar "Since these things are so!">)
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To: decimon
Eat equals Meat Cheese Too!


27 posted on 09/03/2009 2:04:23 PM PDT by Young Werther ("Quae Cum Ita Sunt - Julius Caesar "Since these things are so!">)
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To: Rebel_Ace

“The wolf is solving the “situational problem” at hand, while the dog is solving the “what does the Man want Me to do here?” problem.”
Yes, very well put.

There is no animal (chimps included) that outperforms dogs in understanding human gestures. I don’t think we actually bred this into dogs (fossils of wolves, wolf/dogs have been associated with humans for better than 100,000 years) but rather this is the result of a common natural process known as Mutualism that as you say rewards a species “with a long term survival edge”. IMO dogs are simply wolves occupying an ecological niche. The better they understand humans the better suited they are for the niche.


28 posted on 09/03/2009 2:11:13 PM PDT by Varda
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To: kanawa; Joe 6-pack
Not I, said the Little Red Hen.

Or the Little Brown Lab.

I'm pretty sure HairOfTheDog passed it on to Joe 6-pack.

29 posted on 09/03/2009 4:17:11 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Rebel_Ace; Varda
Double bingo!

Retrievers are specifically BRED and TRAINED to follow human directions instead of their logic, in certain circumstances.

As a matter of fact, I was out today with our pro trainer and a couple of other retrieving club members doing what we call "De-Cheating Drills" which are designed to reinforce the dog's obedience to the handler in the face of what looks like an easier way.

We were working on water de-cheating today. Essentially, when you throw a bird or bumper across a small body of water, the dog looks at the situation and realizes that it's FASTER to run around the bank rather than swim through the water. But we want the retriever to take a straight line to and from the bird, even if it's slower.

So you throw a bumper down a long body of water and send the dog. The dog's natural inclination is to swim to the bank immediately and run back. If the dog goes to the bank, you stop him with a whistle, take him back to where he left the water, sit him, throw the bumper back to the straight line in the water, go back to the line, handle him with an "over" command back to the line, and whistle him on in.

Here's the kicker: we could not get either of my dogs to cheat, even when we threw the bumper 20 feet down the shoreline and only 3 feet from the bank. They KNOW that the water is where I want them. One of them is a show Lab that has had it trained into her, but the little one is from a high-up Field Trial line and she has NEVER cheated, always takes a straight line. It's bred into her.

Probably more information than you wanted, but I just got downstairs from washing off the pond slime.

30 posted on 09/03/2009 4:25:07 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother; USMCWife6869

I recall Joe having it but he passed it on.
I think I was confusing you with one of our other lovely Freeper ladies, USMCWife6869.
Maybe it was because your name was first on the ping list :)


31 posted on 09/03/2009 4:31:42 PM PDT by kanawa
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To: decimon

Sometimes the “logical” thing is to do what the “boss” seems to want, even if your own observation is contradictory.

In this case the “boss” is the human.

The dog doesn’t want to be “fired”, and doing what the “boss” wants is almost always a better choice than doing what is correct based upon your own observations.


32 posted on 09/03/2009 4:38:07 PM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be redistributed?)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Beautiful! Also an excellent example of why dogs need to do what they are told, not what they think is best.

I had a golden retreiver that loved to splash into the water after a ball. When I decided it was time to leave the park and I wanted her to start drying off, I started throwing the ball NOT in the water. She would get the ball, look at me as if patiently teaching a child, then go to the water and lay down in it looking at me, then come give me the ball.

It was as if she was trying to train me “Throw the ball in the WATER!!!”.

33 posted on 09/03/2009 4:41:52 PM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be redistributed?)
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To: decimon

They should have tested Border Collies...

I have an Australian Shepherd and a Border Collie. The Aussie is smart, but he wants to do exactly what I want him to do. The Border Collie is less obedient, but more goal oriented - he looks at the objective, then decides how he wants to achieve it.

In the Highlands, Border Collies are expected to get the job done while the shepherd may be out of sight, so independent reasoning is a good thing. In most American settings, the dogs are used in sight of the shepherd, so independent actions are considered bad.


34 posted on 09/03/2009 4:47:03 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: allmendream
Hey, your Golden was trying to "De-Cheat" you -- she just didn't have an E-Collar handy!

That reminds me of when our little Blue Point Siamese mama cat toilet-trained her kittens by the lecture-demonstration method. Hilarious!

35 posted on 09/03/2009 5:07:45 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother
Oh she was an accomplished people trainer. That dog had her people doing what she wanted. Wasn't my dog so I just enjoyed her precociousness.

Now THAT is a good cat!

My dad worked with a guy in New Zealand whose family raised sheep with Australian Shepherds. The dogs were so well trained by instinct and the originally applied training that they didn't even train new pups or dogs; they did what the other dogs did - and that was to unlatch the gate and take the sheep out in the morning, keep them together, then take them back in at night and close the gate latch.

I wondered what the humans did other than feed the dogs and sheer the sheep. Didn't even have to be there to open the gate. That always impressed me.

36 posted on 09/03/2009 5:13:27 PM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be redistributed?)
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To: decimon

Wolves are smarter than dogs? It’s about time they kill all the pitbulls.

my bad


37 posted on 09/03/2009 5:17:34 PM PDT by King Moonracer (Bad lighting and cheap fabric, that's how you sell clothing.....)
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To: Mr Rogers
In the retriever world, Chessies are the dogs that were bred for independent thinking. They were the dog bred for the old-time market hunters in the Chesapeake Bay, and they oftentimes had to retrieve out of sight of the owner and do multiple blind retrieves long before the days of "handling" by whistle and hand signals (retriever people got the idea from the Herding people, but they were a little slow to catch on).

Now, on the other hand, you have dogs that just don't GET the 'deference to the handler' idea. Flat-coat retrievers are the Henry David Thoreaus of the dog world -- they really do march to a different drummer although they are highly intelligent.

They are notorious water-cheaters/ bank runners. I was at a hunt test (AKC Junior test) and for some reason every Flat Coat owner for miles around showed up at that particular test. The Saturday water series was on this obnoxious little pond owned by a club member. It's shaped like a five or six-armed starfish, with the longest water distance along two arms maybe 50 yards max. Most convoluted shoreline you ever saw. The judges set up the two single marks from one of the little promontories or points between two of the starfish-arms, with the line of one just skirting the end of another point and on to the opposite shore - the line of the other from the starting point ('the line') straight up the middle of the water on another arm to the end.

There were maybe 12 Flat Coats entered in the test -- and EVERY SINGLE ONE ran the ENTIRE bank, all the way to the left around the ends of two channels, and then all the way to the right around the ends of three channels to the second mark. They're not supposed to flunk a Junior dog for bank running, but this just got ridiculous and by the end of the series even the Flat Coat owners had to laugh.

The judge remarked to one as she left the line a little crestfallen: "I don't know what you're complaining about. All your pain is self-inflicted."

Of course my little Chocolate Lab swam straight out, waded through the water over the second point, swam straight back, then swam up and back the channel. Her first goal is to please Her Human, not to follow that distant drum . . . . my little Black Lab had DQ'd that morning when she stepped in a hole and dropped her duck . . . . < sniff >

38 posted on 09/03/2009 5:21:10 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: allmendream
Border Collies are scary smart -- but you know, if you don't have a sheep farm to keep them busy, they are way too much dog for most people.

My Chocolate Lab likes to herd -- she was an agility dog before she was a hunt test dog, so she spent her formative years among Border Collies. She is diminutive for a Lab - only 20 3/4" tall at the shoulder - so she jumped in the 20" class or 22" class (depending on the association) with all the Border Collies. We retired her when she started running in Masters, because there's no way a Lab can make time when she's the only Lab in a class with 30 BCs! If you're running for your Excellent title you're allowed one time fault, and she always used it up. Never knocked a bar, never blew a contact - she was just too slow.

39 posted on 09/03/2009 5:25:01 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Brad's Gramma

They all forget where their puppies came from.

Flame away.

My wolves are so smart that it is scarey at times.


40 posted on 09/03/2009 5:28:25 PM PDT by Shyla
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