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To: rustbucket
" When a state took property owned by its deputy, the United States government, for the future safety of the state's people, I think it was a different matter. Or at least it was back then. If the states were going out of the Union in a few days or weeks, which they were, then the matter of when they took possession of property in the name of the state is almost immaterial. If it were "rebellion, insurrection or domestic violence" as you say, why didn't the federal government rise up at that point and invade the South."

Again, we are talking about the short period, from Lincoln's election in November 1860 to his inauguration in March 1861. During that time everyone in the North, including Buchanan and Lincoln were trying to think of ways to satisfy Southern demands.

In the South, what was going on was:

In response, Buchanan made no efforts to defend any of these properties, except Fort Sumter and in Pensacola, Florida, Fort Pickens. The defense of Fort Pickens was successful, btw.

Soon after taking office, President Lincoln began preparations for a second attempt at defending Fort Sumter.

Bottom line: none of the constitutional arguments about "states rights" can justify illegal seizures of Federal property BEFORE secession. Even AFTER declaring secession, the legal course would have been to negotiate settlement terms. This is just what the US spent YEARS doing with Great Britain after the Revolutionary War. Instead, after just a few WEEKS, Southern delegates got mad, went home and started shooting at northerners.

The result was war.

1,363 posted on 07/12/2009 7:29:50 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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To: BroJoeK
Thanks for your reply.

Troops from Fort Barrancas in the Pensacola area moved to Fort Pickens in January after receiving orders from Winfield Scott to protect federal facilities. In response the local commander (Slemmer) just transferred his troops a mile or so (my guess at the distance) across the harbor, abandoning one fort and occupying another more defensible one. The following link mentions this and incidentally also the apparent first shot of the war which happened at Barrancas on January 8. Link

Pickens had not been garrisoned for about 10 years before the move, but it was out at the end of a long sandy barrier island off the coast and more defensible than Barrancas. Troops were sent to Pickens in April by Lincoln at the same time he sent the fleet to Sumter. Were there other occasions that troops were sent to Pickens between January and April? I just visited Fort Pickens about two weeks ago and bought a couple of books/booklets about its history in the fort visitor's shop. The only reinforcements to Pickens after Slemmer's January 10th move that one of those books, "Guardians of the Gulf," mentions were those that came in mid-April.

More later.

1,367 posted on 07/12/2009 8:40:10 AM PDT by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket; Non-Sequitur
BJK: "In response, Buchanan made no efforts to defend any of these properties, except Fort Sumter and in Pensacola, Florida, Fort Pickens. The defense of Fort Pickens was successful, btw."

Sorry, I'm running many posts behind. And sorry for confusion regarding Fort Pickens.

Fort Pickens was not reinforced by President Buchanan. It was reinforced in April, 1861, by President Lincoln, at the same time he sent reinforcements to Fort Sumter. Indeed, some of the same ships were involved in both operations.

January 8: "Federal troops garrisoning Fort Barrancas, Pensacola, fire warning shots at a group of individuals approaching them."

Rustbucket and others claim these were the "first shots" of the Civil War, but since Florida did not secede until January 10, the approaching individuals threatening federal troops could, by definition, only be an insurrection or rebellion, if even that. So the federal warning shots do not constitute "Civil War," but a simple response to lawlessness.

January 9: "Artillery manned by South Carolina state forces at Fort Moultrie and Morris Island fire on the transport Star of the West as it approaches Charleston Harbor. No damage is inflicted and it returns to New York unscathed. Technically speaking, these are the first shots of the Civil War..."

According to Wikipedia: "The Star of the West was given a warning shot across the bow and turned about to leave the harbor mouth. She was then fired on from Fort Moultrie and hit twice."

Two hits does not really sound like "no damagage" to me.

January 10: "Federal troops under Lieutenant Adam J. Slemmer, garrisoning Fort Barranca at Pensacola, Florida, spike their cannon and relocate offshore to Fort Pickens on nearby Santa Rosa Island. Local troops soon confiscate the navy yard, but Fort Pickens remains in Union hands for the duration of hostilities."

So far as I know, this is the only other act of resistance, outside Fort Sumter, by any Federal officer to the forced seizures of dozens of Union forts, arsenals, customs houses and ships. It was done under President Buchanan, who did not order Fort Pickens turned over to Florida.

Now we move on to the Lincoln administration:

April 8: "Federal troops onboard the US revenue cutter Harriot Lane land to bolster the garrison of Fort Pickens, Florida.

April 10: "The steamer Baltic departs New York in a second attempt to relieve the garrison at Fort Sumter, Charleston Harbor, with naval agent Gustavus V. Fox onboard. En route, it is joined by the USS Pawnee off Hampton Roads, Virginia.

April 12: Southern General Beauregard's representatives "demand a precise time for the evacuation of that post. Major Robert Anderson, acknowledging the inevitable, declares noontime on April 15, provided he does not receive additional supplies or instructions from the government. Anderson then is informed summarily that the confederates will commence bombarding within one hour. The Civil War, a monumental struggle in military history and a defining moment for the United States, is about to unfold..."

April 12: "The USS Pawnee, the revenue cutter Harriet Lane, and the steamship Baltic commanded by Bustavus V. Fox, arrive in Charleston Harbor, South Carolina, with supplies for Fort Sumter. Having appeared too late to reinforce the garrison they remain helpless spectators as the fort is bombarded.

April 12: "The naval squadron consisting of USS Sabine, Brooklyn, St. Louis, and Wynandeotte begins to land reinforcements at Fort Pickens, Florida."

According to Wikipedia five more ships accompanied the three listed here: Powhatan, Pocahontas and three tug boats. That makes eight, but there were also four more ships sent at the same time to reinforce Fort Pickens: Sabine, Brooklyn, St. Louis and Wynandotte.

Point is: where President Buchanan in January sent one ship, Star of the West to reinforce Fort Sumter, President Lincoln in April sent at least 12 ships, all told, to reinforce both Forts Sumter and Pickens.

The Fort Pickens operation was successful, resulting in no battles or casualties, and securing the fort for Union forces throughout the war.

The Fort Sumter operation resulted in Southern bombardment, destruction and surrender of Fort Sumter, and launched the Civil War.

1,509 posted on 07/17/2009 11:04:51 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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