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To: Squantos

You have a point with the 38, what’s props counter-rotate.

Earlier this week I posted that I once did photos for a WWII pilot’s reunion. Every one that I talked to (18 or so) had flown both the Mustang and the 47 Thunderbolt. All liked the 47 better.....they liked it because it could deliver a pounding, take a pounding, then get you back home.

Returning from a mission is a serious consideration when judging combat aircraft.


16 posted on 04/09/2009 2:42:49 PM PDT by Loud Mime (If Christians cannot unite in battle to save this nation, it will be lost)
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To: Loud Mime
From Wiki:

Although the P-51 Mustang replaced the P-47 in the long-range escort role in Europe, the Thunderbolt still ended the war with 3,752 air-to-air kills claimed in over 746,000 sorties of all types, at the cost of 3,499 P-47s to all causes in combat.[16] In Europe in the critical first three months of 1944 when the German aircraft industry and Berlin were heavily attacked, the P-47 shot down more German fighters than did the P-51 (570 out of 873), and shot down approximately 900 of the 1,983 claimed during the first six months of 1944.[17] In Europe, the Thunderbolt flew more sorties (423,435) than P-51s, P-38s and P-40s combined.

I suppose an equivalent Navy aircraft would have been the F6F Hellcat.

Navy and Marine F6Fs flew 66,530 combat sorties (45% of all fighter sorties of the war, 62,386 sorties were flown from aircraft carriers)[20] and destroyed 5,163 (56% of all Naval/Marine air victories of the war) at a cost of 270 Hellcats (an overall kill-to-loss ratio of 19:1).[21] The aircraft performed well against the best Japanese opponents with a 13:1 kill ratio against Mitsubishi A6M, 9.5:1 against Nakajima Ki-84, and 3.7:1 against Mitsubishi J2M during the last year of the war.[22] The F6F became the prime ace-maker aircraft in the American inventory, with 305 Hellcat aces.[23] That being said, it must be noted that the U.S. successes were not only attributed to superior aircraft, but also because they faced increasingly inexperienced Japanese aviators from 1942 onwards, as well as having the advantage of ever-increasing numerical superiority.

Corsair

By the beginning of 1945, the Corsair was a full-blown "mudfighter", performing strikes with high-explosive bombs, napalm tanks, and HVARs. She proved surprisingly versatile, able to operate everything from Bat glide bombs (without sacrificing a load of 2.75 in/70 mm rockets) to 11.75 in (300 mm) Tiny Tim rockets.[48] The aircraft was a prominent participant in the fighting for the Palaus, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Statistics compiled at the end of the war indicate that the F4U and FG flew 64,051 operational sorties for the U.S. Marines and U.S. Navy through the conflict (44% of total fighter sorties), with only 9,581 sorties (15%) flown from carrier decks.[49] F4U and FG pilots claimed 2,140 air combat victories against 189 losses to enemy aircraft, for an overall kill ratio of over 11:1.[50] The aircraft performed well against the best Japanese opponents with a 12:1 kill ratio against Mitsubishi A6M, 7:1 against Nakajima Ki-84, 13:1 against Kawanishi N1K-J, and 3:1 against Mitsubishi J2M during the last year of the war.[51] The Corsair bore the brunt of fighter-bomber missions, delivering 15,621 tons (14,171 tonnes) of bombs during the war (70% of total bombs dropped by fighters during the war).[50]

38 posted on 04/09/2009 3:04:55 PM PDT by AFreeBird
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To: Loud Mime
That difference of opinion over the Jug and the Mustang is why I believe such discussions are ultimately pointless.

The F6F Hellcat is what killed off the majority of enemy pilots in the PTO, but it never looked as glamorous as the F4U and the P-38 while doing it.

Meanwhile, the P-38 was largely a disappointment in the ETO despite being the USAAF's weapon of choice in the PTO.

What you get in such discussions is a dialogue where proponents talk past one another. The USAAF in the ETO faced a very different foe in the energy fighting Me-109, FW-190, and Me-262, than the USAAF faced in the PTO against various Japanese turn fighters.

The USN, after the Wildcat was relegated to the second string, had aircraft specifically designed to destroy the Mitsubishi Zero and these craft never squared off with the Luftwaffe.

The RAF and its colonial counterparts in the Pacific had a similarly disparate experience. So, "best" discussions are never going to arrive at an actual best aircraft. There were several bests.
40 posted on 04/09/2009 3:05:39 PM PDT by Goldsborough (Yes Lauren, you are not cool enough to own a Mac.)
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To: Loud Mime
NO
don't give me a P-38
the props, they counter-rotate
they're scattered & sittin’
from Burma to Britain
don't give me a P-38
NO

give me operations
way out on some lonely atoll
for I am too young to die
I just wanna grow old

& don't give me a P-39
the engine is mounted behind
she'll tumble & spin
& she'll auger you in
don't give me a P-39
NO

don't give me a Peter 40
it's a hell of an airplane, I know
she's a ground looping bastard
& you're sure to get plastered
don't give me a Peter 40

One of the advantages to driving a cab, which I did for about 10 years was the people I met. One gentleman I picked up to take to the airport had vanity plates that said “P-38J”. We talked during an all too short ride, and he told me that he did love the Lightning. However, he trained on P-39s. For those of you that aren't familiar with that little beast, it had an engine mounted behind the pilot with the crankshaft running between his legs. It also had an automobile type door. This gentleman told me that they had a rash of P-39s come back from training hops with the door missing. They couldn't get a straight answer from the pilots as to what was happening. Finally it came out. With the center of gravity in the middle, a P-39 could be easily put into a flat spin, much like a Frisbee. The pilot would try every trick in the book to recover, usually with no success. Left with the only option of bailing out, the pilot would take his hands off the stick to hit the emergency door release. With both hands off the stick, it would center up on it's own, and the Airacobra would return to it's normally rather docile flight characteristics. I also used to carry around a very nice old German lady, who was a Luftwaffe veteran. But, that's another story.

56 posted on 04/09/2009 3:12:00 PM PDT by 75thOVI ("The crews of all submarines captured should be treated as pirates and hanged". Sir Arthur Wilson)
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To: Loud Mime
Earlier this week I posted that I once did photos for a WWII pilot’s reunion. Every one that I talked to (18 or so) had flown both the Mustang and the 47 Thunderbolt. All liked the 47 better.....they liked it because it could deliver a pounding, take a pounding, then get you back home.

Your experience coincides with what I have picked up from primary and secondary sources over the decades. While the P-51 (like the Spitfire) was obviously a good performer and got the lion's share of contemporary publicity, the P-47 (like the Hurricane) did much of the heavy lifting at a critical stage and got far less publicity.

FWIW, I know of one ex-Mosquito pilot who gets positively irate that the Mossie is virtually forgotten by so many.

Mr. niteowl77

74 posted on 04/09/2009 3:22:54 PM PDT by niteowl77 (You wanted him, and now you have got him. I say, "Good day to you," America.)
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To: Loud Mime
In 1978 I met Pappy Boyington at an airshow in Smyrna TN and proceeded to get commode hugging drunk. of course his favorite was the Corsair.
204 posted on 04/10/2009 4:47:02 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Nemo me impune lacessit)
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