Posted on 04/02/2009 5:14:02 AM PDT by metmom
Fact: This government school district has and **will** force children into association with these druggies with or without their parent's ( or the children's) permission.
In my opinion this is a First Amendment violation of the children and parent's God-given right to free association.
I’m all for vouchers but that won’t give children First Amendment rights.
Or Second Amendment rights.
Or voting rights.
You do your arguemnt disservice by focusing on non existant rights for your issue and comparing children with prisoners.
If those children were in private schools they would probably have fewer priveleges than in public school with no consideration for Constitutional Rights.
Your “fact” is not what is at issue in this instance, you are just using this to continue your all out war against public schools and the parents that choose to send their children to them.
You do not give a rat’s rear end about the rights of anyone who disagrees with your utter hatred and contempt for anything and everyone associated with public schools.
( Yes, some lucky parents can ransom their child by paying a “Freedom of Conscience and Religious Tax” through home and private schooling. Some call it “jizya”.)
Let's put it differently.
There is big difference between a person using his local Safeway supermarket, and being forced by his “comrades” to use the government food distribution center.
Yes, the Safeway, Save a Lot, Acme, or local private school, can and do restrict behavior on their **private** property, but neither has any any power ( especially government police threat) to make a citizen use their services.
I am **amazed** that you have never learned that the First Amendment is to control **government**power. Reading the Constitution, and learning about it, was part of my Catholic education as a child.
Thoughtful readers will rightly conclude that the government has and will **force** students into association with these druggies against the child and parents’ will. And....for cooperating with this abuse, teachers want the accolades given to Mother Teresa.
Thoughtful readers will rightly conclude you have a major flaw in the reading comprehension department in regard to this particular situation. The “government” actually protected all of the children involved in this particular case, but one shouldn’t let facts get in the way of your typical tirade against anything and everything public school, should one?
You really need a new shtick, your hyperbole is tiresome.
I am willing to bet that a fair number of parents are wondering if their kids were sitting next to, having lunch with, and out in the school yard with these pot addled kids. The next question that would come to their minds is, “ Will these druggies be back in the same school, ( very likely) and will my kids be forced again ( by the government) to associate with them or other druggies?”
Unless the parents can afford the “jizya” of extra home or private schooling, yes, the government school operatives will trample the parents and children's God-given right to free assembly.
In the minds of the government school communtariat the “diversity” of being forced by the government into association with druggies is more important than the God-given human right to freely associate.
There is a solution:
Complete separation of school and state. I support vouchers, tax credits, and charters if they are a means to move our nation is this direction.
Parents to Protest Pro-Gay Day in Public Schools
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2223290/posts?page=5#5
You are making absolutely no sense. You are proposing MORE government control in order to create LESS government control.
I have no problem with separating school and state, but what you are proposing here is the total opposite. Vouchers and tax credits will only lead to government control over private sector educational institutions, as if there wasn't enough of that already.
The system needs to be dismantled from the top down with the elimination of federal involvement in K-12 education as a starting point.
Whether you wish to accept it or not, regardless of where or how a child is educated, there is going to be a certain amount of government bureaucracy involved. What you propose would only make that situation even worse.
The system needs to be dismantled from the top down with the elimination of federal involvement in K-12 education as a starting point.
We actually agree on something.
Yes, a good first step would be to complete remove the federal government from any involvement in education and return all these responsibilities to the states.
A good next step would be to charge tuition to parents who use government schools. ( We do this for college and university now, ...and... Yes, many state constitutions would need to be changed. ) If parents were charged tuition, many may choose to use that money in a private setting rather than at the government school. In many areas it actually costs **more** to educate a government schooled child than it does to privately educate them. This fact might make private education very attractive to many.
Another step would be to reduce school taxes to those who pay private tuition, who subsidize the private education of another child, or who donate to a private tuition fund.
Eventually, as the private sector grows we could close down government K-12 schools.
there is going to be a certain amount of government bureaucracy involved.
Parents would only need to demonstrate a good faith effort. Why should parents be held to a higher standard than the government sets for itself? If complete illiteracy and innumeracy is enough for the government to pass a child from grade to grade ( and even issue a diploma) that should be the standard for parents. In other words how can the government enforce standards when it has none for itself?
Finally, many of the services that make educating the catastrophically handicapped child soooooo expensive are not really education expenses. They are instead the nursing and medical costs. Health insurance should be expected to cover the costs or earring aids, special computers, enlarged print readers and special glasses, interpreters, personal health assistants, occupational therapy, physical therapy, speech and hearing therapy...etc.
I have suggested on other posts that "catastrophic education" expenses be part of every child's health insurance (private or government).
Everyone already pays "tuition" in the form of property taxes. Without the elimination of the school tax portion of that tax bill there will be no support for such a move. The problem with that is that in some areas it is not a delineated item of the tax bill and so it would be difficult to separate that portion of the property tax. Where I lived in Delaware the school tax, even though was on the same bill, was separate from, but based upon, my real estate tax. Where I live now in Virginia, it's an entirely different process. My property tax is paid to the county and then the county sets the school district budget.
If complete illiteracy and innumeracy is enough for the government to pass a child from grade to grade ( and even issue a diploma) that should be the standard for parents.
There you go, once again, with your biased broadbrushing. I know far more children who have been retained in a grade than have been passed onto the next grade when they should have been retained. In fact I know of only one, and that pass on was "politically" motivated. The school administration did not want to face the bad PR the parent was threatening if the child wasn't promoted. The administration also didn't want to risk the loss of money that was also threatened because this is a private school.
Threats of financial recourse tend to go both ways. While I see your point about the pulling of students from public schools can eventually force closure, it doesn't necessarily mean that the private sector can do any better.
I have suggested on other posts that "catastrophic education" expenses be part of every child's health insurance (private or government).
That actually makes sense, which is why it won't work. The insurance industry is not going to go along with that voluntarily, thus the government would have to force them to do so.
So, for the sake of argument, let's say we have eliminated the vast majority of government control of K-12 education, who is going to set the standards? Who will determine what is the standard for literacy and numeracy? You? Me? The high school drop out down the street?
Who sets the standards for admission to private colleges and universities?
Answer: The free market!
The free market does a rather good job now of "certifying" kids. Have you noticed that SAT, ACT, MCAT, LSAT, and GRE tests are private concerns. Once admitted as and undergraduate, the colleges do a rather good job of administering tests to determine whether students need remedial education courses. They do this privately with little government regulation or interference.
In any event, the same standards should apply to parents and the private sector that the government applies to itself. If the government has no standards for itself, then that same standard should be the same for parents and the private sector.
Everyone already pays "tuition" in the form of property taxes.
Sounds like communism to me.
Why not have the communists in our nation take over 100% of the GDP? Then we could then (through property, income, and sales taxes) communally pay for free grocery stores, clothing stores, scratchy toilet paper stores, stand in long queues for a withered orange or black banana, live in cement block housing, and be on a waiting list for 15 years for a government crap car.
Hm?...Come to think of it, the slaves on plantations were "taxed" at 100% and "paid" for everything they received from their slaves owners too!
There you go, once again, with your biased broadbrushing.
My brother, a former math teacher in an inner city high school, and **everyone** of his colleagues, would stand and testify that I am not "broad brushing". Every teacher in his school would witness that barely and completely illiterate and innumerate students by the **thousands** are being passed from grade to grade. Many in their school even receive diplomas.
it doesn't necessarily mean that the private sector can do any better.
It is a moral issue before God! Whether the private sector can do as well, better, or worse has little to do with it.
Government should never be in the business of threatening its citizens if they refuse to submit to government indoctrination. Schooling can never be religious, politically, or culturally neutral. By owning and running compulsory attendance government schools, the government crushes free speech, press, assembly, and free expression of religion, of every student under police threat to attend. Also, since it impossible to have a religiously neutral education, **all** government schools establish the religious worldview of some, while destroying the religious worldview of others.
It is an abomination before God that parents are under police threat to pay a "Freedom of conscience and religion tax" ( jizya) simply to escape the religious, political, and cultural indoctrination of the government.
Same, better, or worse has nothing to do with it. Government schools are a First Amendment and freedom of conscience abomination!
Once again you show up with a strawman. We are discussing K-12 here, not private colleges and universities.
In any event, the same standards should apply to parents and the private sector that the government applies to itself.
I agree.
If the government has no standards for itself, then that same standard should be the same for parents and the private sector
You think you are so cute with your two stepping here.
The public and private school teachers and former teachers in my family disagree with those in your family, and thus my position is no less accurate than yours.
The rest of your screed leaves me to start thinking you have become mentally unbalanced in regard to this issue and you really should step away from it. Your tirades of hatred have actually become totally irrational.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wow! Personal attack. What a way **not** to make your point.
This tactic may work in a private conversation. Those attacked in this manner are forced into:
1) Attempting to prove that they are not mentally unbalanced. ( Fruitless)
2) Walking away and ending the discussion. Of course the person using the personal attack wrongly believes they have "won" the discussion.
However....This is the Internet. The very smart Freepers here on Free Republic can plainly recognize personal attack when they see it. It permanently stands for all to read as a statement which says far more about the person using it than receiving it.
and thus my position is no less accurate than yours.
Please do a Google search on the words: College remedial courses high school graduate.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=+College+remedial+courses+high+school+graduate.&btnG=Search
( This is not my opinion or that of my brother and his colleagues.)
Please do a Google search on: illiteracy high school graduate.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=illiteracy+high+school+graduate&btnG=Google+Search
Again, the result will not be a "personal" opinion.
This is more than enough proof that government is doing a very poor job of setting standards for itself. If illiteracy qualifies a child for a high school diploma, then that must be the standard for private and home schooled children. It's called equal protection under the law.
If the government has no standards for itself, then how can it impose standards on the private citizen?
We are discussing K-12 here, not private colleges and universities.
It is not a strawman. It is merely showing how the free market sets standards for high school graduates ( private and government). The SAT, ACT, GRE,...etc. are **privately** administered exams.
Private industry copes with the lack of standards. High school graduates can range from barely literate to highly accomplished, yet industry muddles through. In my own office, for instance, I simple never interviewed anyone who did not have some college level course work. It was the only way I could make sure the applicant could read. ( Saved tons of time.)
Taking selected sentence parts out of context allows you to believe I made a personal attack. It also proves you are unable to counter the salient points I initially made.
Your google search nonsense is meaningless based upon the fact YOU brought up the personal experience of your family members. You are seeking to change the focus because you are unable to continue your diatribe in the same vein as you started it.
However....This is the Internet. The very smart Freepers here on Free Republic can plainly recognize personal attack when they see it. It permanently stands for all to read as a statement which says far more about the person using it than receiving it.
You are absolutely correct. The thoughtful readers here will fully understand that the broadbrushing utilized by some members of this forum do far more damage than good to their cause.
Since personal anecdote is unacceptable to you, ( And...I admit that it is weak evidence.), the Google results should be more than sufficient proof that kids by the thousands in this nation are graduating from high school seriously unprepared.
With outcomes this abysmal but considered acceptable for graduation, what qualifies the government to set the standard for anyone? If the private and home schools are held to the government standard ( as they should), the standard is illiterate and innumerate. Wow! I am sooooo unimpressed! (/p)
As for broad-brushing, ...well...the Google evidence speaks for itself and is self evident.
Please do a Google search on the words: College remedial courses high school graduate.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=+College+remedial+courses+high+school+graduate.&btnG=Search
( This is not my opinion or that of my brother and his colleagues.)
Please do a Google search on: illiteracy high school graduate.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=illiteracy+high+school+graduate&btnG=Google+Search
Again, the result will not be a "personal" opinion.
As for other matters previously discussed, government schools remain a First Amendment and freedom of conscience abomination.
It is a violation of a child and parent's First Amendment and God-given human right of free association for the government to use the threat ( implied or explicit) of police action to **FORCE** children into association with druggies.
I never said personal anecdote is unacceptable, why are you attempting to attribute something to me which is not in evidence.
I stated my anecdotal evidence was as valid as yours, you are the one who chose to then switch gears because you did not like mine.
You are a fine one to criticize the lack of debating skills of others when you are the one who insists on switching modes when confronted with that which you do not wish to acknowledge. That is a personal problem of yours which is not of my creation.
That you choose to ignore FACTS when it comes to the various CHOICES that parents choose to make in regard to how and or where their children are educated is yet another personal problem of yours. Personally I don’t care that my CHOICE is not to your liking or meeting with your approval. I, and I alone, know what is best for my child. Not some cybernut cheerleader who thinks she is the arbiter of what is best for all children.
You really do give the proponents of homeschooling a very bad name. I have often used your irrational diatribes as evidence of why people do not understand the actual intelligent rationale of home schooling. You do not show any, and truly scare people away from what could actually benefit others.
Thankfully, my homeschooling friends are rational people who have no problem associating with my husband, our child and myself, even though we have chosen a public school for her. Even at the tender age of 10, my daughter is a very good judge of character and people. You are not an adult she would care to be around, and she is extremely comfortable in adult settings.
The main thrust of nearly every one of my posts is the police **force** that stands behind every government school.
Morally, it is an abomination for the government to **force** children into setting where they are treated like prisoners, and have every one of their First Amendment Rights trashed by the government.
Citizen children ( and indirectly their parents) should not be subject to government curriculum and policies that can **never** be religiously, politically, or culturally neutral. Government should never be forcing citizens into long confinement where they are forbidden to speak, publish, or express and practice their religion freely. Government should not be dictating with whom a person will associate. Government should not be doing this!
If parents **choose** a private setting for their children, then:
1) Government is not involved.
2) Free will and free mutual agreement will determine the discipline and curriculum content of the private school.
While I personally believe that home schooling is the best setting for raising a health and well adjusted child, I have frequently posted that I realize that this is impossible for many parents and children. These children will need institutionalization for their education. Given their circumstances it is the best ( though not ideal) choice for them.
Orphanages are often the best choice for some children, but no one is arguing that it is the most ideal setting for children.
By the way, thankfully the government is not **forcing** your daughter to associate with me. Too bad, though if we were neighbors. The government very well might be forcing your daughter to associate with my children and grandchildren in our mutually shared government school.
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