Posted on 01/26/2009 7:43:56 PM PST by Gordon Greene
A few months ago, I read of a case where a large violent person armed with an edged weapon tried to rob a gun store in NZ, and was shot by one of the store’s owners with a .45. There was much to do about whether the shooter should be prosecuted for having a loaded gun on the premises.
Would you enlighten me as to whether it is allowable under NZ law to have a gun available in your house for self defense, or if the conservative government, in light of the recent case, is likely to reform the law to allow this?
> A few months ago, I read of a case where a large violent person armed with an edged weapon tried to rob a gun store in NZ, and was shot by one of the store’s owners with a .45. There was much to do about whether the shooter should be prosecuted for having a loaded gun on the premises.
Yes, that case happened about 2 years ago, in Panmure at one of the few gun stores in Auckland. A scroat armed with a machete and high on P-Methamphetamine entered the store and demanded firearms, threatening the owner with the machete if he didn’t comply. Not unreasonably, the store owner loaded a .45 and shot the perpatrator. He then offered first aid and called the cops.
The cops declined to prosecute the owner for shooting the perp, as the owner had a strong case for “self defence” under the Crimes Act 1961. So instead, unbelievably, they charged him with having a loaded firearm without lawful excuse!
It went to trial and he was acquitted. The perp got a token sentence.
The short answer to your question is “no”. You cannot possess any weapon of any description for “self defense” purposes in NZ. Lots of people own guns here in NZ, and some of those guns get used for self defense, but chances are good that if you do you will need to account for doing so in court, facing serious charges.
It is a dumb law, and I do hope our conservative government changes it sometime soon. NZ has the second-lowest number of cops in the OECD, coupled with a very violent society. The cops cannot be everywhere and are not always where they need to be when they are needed.
The US Definition is an interesting one, because in my view it is unique in the world. It is different to ous in NZ, but I believe it is also different to what is used in the UK, Australia, Canada, and elsewhere.
I've read the same. And here's an interesting quote from President Reagan:
"If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.
Conservatism is all about preseving the status quo and traditional values and ideals. Liberalism is about implementing change, challenging traditional values and ideals, and progressing new ideas.
Here's a quick story: Up to ten years ago, that's exactly how I thought conservatism was defined here in the U.S., too. But, I live in the northeastern part of the country, and that's how most of the people around me defined it. Then, ten years ago, I started talking via the internet with conservatives and self-described libertarians living in the midwest and out west. When they heard some of my views - and back then I favored gun control, for example - they told me that was "liberal", not conservative. I remember insisting that they were liberal, not I, and defining the two terms almost exactly as you did (above).
So, Americans identify themselves as conservatives differently, depending on the region where they live - the Northeast, the South, the Midwest, the West - and from person to person. I noticed there are some FReepers who define conservatism the way I used to define it. But, they're mistaken, just as I was. As you said, here in the U.S., our Constitutional rights are at the heart of conservatism. Anyway, it's been quite an education for me over the years on conservatism and politics, and it's interesting to read about how it's defined in other countries, too.
In the US you have locked Conservatism with Individualism, and Liberalism with Socialisn.
Yes, you are absolutely correct.
In New Zealand we do not have the legal concept of “Personal Injury Liability”,
I've never sued anyone, but I myself was sued once. (The plaintiff lied, and I told the truth, but there was little I could do.) My insurance took care of it. At the time, the insurance agent told me that Americans living in the midwest, for example, tended to settle auto accidents between each other without going to court, whereas here in the northeast people will milk an auto accident for everything they can get. So, I guess there are differences according to region when it comes to a person's tendency to file lawsuits, too.
We do not want psychopaths owning guns. We do not want clowns shooting at people if they slip on ice.
I'm not sure I believe the victims' story, yet. A stabbed teenager appeared on the doorstep of my parents' home once, and he and his friends claimed he was stabbed by another boy in a fight over a girl. My folks didn't believe them. They said it was obviously a drug deal gone bad. ;-)
But, anyway, assuming their story is true, and assuming the Evanston is Evanston, IL, the state of Illinois does require licensing of owners. IL does have laws restricting gun ownership. The problem is, no law here will keep guns out of the hands of criminals because they're willing to break the law, anyway, to obtain them. The laws mostly seem to hurt honest, law-abiding people.
I appreciated the explanation on your system of government. I have read about your new Prime Minister. I hope all goes well for you and your country under conservative leadership there.
Starfleet, I’ve enjoyed reading the discussion you and DieHard are having.
DieHard, I just wanted to add something, and maybe Starfleet will add an opinion, too, because it might differ from mine...
I hope you don’t have the impression that we’re all suing each other here in the U.S. My husband studied martial arts and suffered injuries, and he never sued anyone. His medical insurance took care of it.
If a person cannot afford medical insurance here, that person might be able to qualify for Medicare (government-provided insurance). If the person cannot qualify for Medicare, and he shows up at a hospital without insurance, the doctors cannot turn him away (the way I understand it). For the most part, they must treat that person, even if they know he will not pay. (That policy has led to big problems with illegal aliens receiving medical care at hospitals.) But, the state does give subsidies to hospitals, and HMOs are subsidized by our government.
So, the healthcare system we have now has been leaning toward socialist (imho), and the effects have been negative (imho).
There are people who sue without good reason. But, most people don’t sue, even when they have a good reason. IMHO, a good reason would be medical error or negligence. (Can you sue in NZ for medical malpractice?) Contrary to popular belief, it’s very difficult to sue here for medical malpractice. I read once that 80% of claims for medical malpractice are denied.
> (Can you sue in NZ for medical malpractice?)
It happens, and it is rare. I believe it is for exemplary and punitive damages, rather than for personal injury.
My understanding is that for most malpractise injuries, ACC covers it (that’s our “accident” insurance) and the medical profession itself visits the Wrath of God on the offending physician or surgeon.
Malpractise is very rare in NZ. Our doctors, nurses, surgeouns and other medical professionals are amongst the best trained and highly qualified in the world. The are also one of NZ’s top exports, unfortunately.
“Evanston is probably the roughest....”
Yeah, lots of things have changed since the late 60s.
What I remember about it was , like most of the City to its south, lots of wonderful apartment buildings—housing
that put
most of the rest of the country to shame, in every way.
But Evanston is the LARGEST , population wise, of all those northern suburbs, and has THREE “L” stops all to itself. (Davis, Central, and Main? if memory serves)
Did they close down the South Boulevard and Noyes stops?
Those sound familiar, now that you mention it.
FIVE stops! Were South and Noyes closest to Howard?
Or on the other end?
South Blvd was the first stop after Howard and I completely forgot about Foster which was right after Davis. Noyes was the first stop south of Central. I don’t know if they’re all still there, though.
It just occurred to me, the three stops were probably stops of the CHicago and Northwestern train that ran through all the northern suburbs up to Waukegan and parts further north I think. I used to take it all the time and had friends and reasons for getting off at each of those train stops, which, I think ran right alongside the L stops.
You’re right, the Northwestern does run right alongside the el for awhile after Howard. And I just remembered the Main street stop- with its newspapers from around the world news stand.
That newsstand was one of my favorite stops, and was where I sometimes bought the Daily Racing Form in about ‘79-’80,when I first got interested in horseracing.
And a favorite haunt of my friend David and I, was B &G restaurant down the street from the stand. We’d get toasted pecan rolls and coffee while gobbling up all the leftwing trash we were into in those days (late 60s)/
The B & G sounds so familiar. Did it have a lit sign with a lot of lightbulbs? I lived in north Evanston, between Noyes and Central. I used to ride the el home every day from Howard. I know it’s a long shot, but do you remember the Dinosaur Egg Shop? A local car dealer (I think it was Pontiac) made up a phony store next to its dealership as a joke.
I think B & G had a neon sign, but you could be right, since I am now visualizing a sign across the top of the front window packed with lightbulbs spelling out the name.
I think you’re right.
THe Dinosaur Egg Shop! sounds funny, but no, I don’t remember it. I had a very interesting job for about 10 days over Christmas vacation at a place on the corner of Howard and Clark St. I think it was.This was over 40 years ago, I remember just before Walt Disney died. The place was directly over a 24 hr coffee shop called, I think, the Golden Nugget. It was a place called Pivot Point Beauty School. I was very young and well.....let’s just say it was VERY interesting...... Isn’t it funny how this thread is divided between New Zealand and Evanston Illinois?
The Guardian Angles?
Are these the guys that go around protecting the Laws of Geometry? The only that carry little protractors in tiny holsters, and have t-shirts that say EUCLID RULES!?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.