Posted on 01/08/2009 7:57:56 PM PST by Coyoteman
Abstract: ID (‘intelligent design’) is not science, but a form of creationism; both are very different from the simple theological proposition that a divine Creator is responsible for the natural patterns and processes of the Universe. Its current version maintains that a ‘Designer’ must intervene miraculously to accomplish certain natural scientific events. The verdict in the 2005 case Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover School District, et al. (in Harrisburg, PA, U.S.A.) was a landmark of American jurisprudence that prohibited the teaching of ID as science, identified it as religiously based, and forbade long-refuted ‘criticisms of evolution’ from introduction into public school classes. Much of the science of the trial was based on biochemistry; biochemists and other scientists have several important opportunities to improve scientific literacy and science education in American public schools (‘state schools’) by working with teachers, curriculum developers and textbook writers.
(Excerpt) Read more at biochemj.org ...
Knew it! It does seem that the evolutionists are the biggest defenders of trampling on the freedom of conscience of their neighbor.
But....It's for their own good, right? ( barf!)
Why not?
and is arguably not even binding on the Dover School District since the case was not appealed by the new school board.
A party can't make a court decision non-binding by refusing to appeal the decision.
In any event, no other court or judge is required to give this case even the slightest degree of credibility since there was no appeal and no appellate decision.
That's completely wrong. Unless someone successfully appeals a case, or it is later overridden by a subsequent decision, a decision sets a legal precedent. The fact that it was not appealed is irrelevant.
I've asked wintertime, repeatedly, to cite one legal case that supports her belief that public schools violate the 1st Amendment, and she has, repeatedly, dodged the question.
Erwin Schroedinger, dear friends! Speaking of the "bankrupts of rationalism"!
I will. An excellent resource is the Alliance for the Separation of School and State, one of the links JR has on his homepage.
I think you minimize the relevance of evolution related science to education,(acceding to YEC demands would requires gelding of all science subjects, including geology, astronomy, physics, as well as biology) but as I see it, the public skool system is much more damaging to education than the prospect of Creationists teaching their own kids their own creation mythology.
I thought you were attempting to justify teaching Creationism, or prevent the teaching of evolution, but if I understand you, I am in agreement with you.
Both Defendants and many of the leading proponents of ID make a bedrock assumption which is utterly false. Their presupposition is that evolutionary theory is antithetical to a belief in the existence of a supreme being and to religion in general. Repeatedly in this trial, Plaintiffs’ scientific experts testified that the theory of evolution represents good science, is overwhelmingly accepted by the scientific community, and that it in no way conflicts with, nor does it deny, the existence of a divine creator.
What does this judge's gratuitous theological opining have to do with his deciding what is and what is not science?
Cordially,
School is a parade? Boy, you could really milk this metaphor, though, because in any kind of big parade, the bands each march to the beat of their own drums. The parade itself is a rather loose amalgam in one dimension.
Aren't you folks at all worried about Balkanization?
You really should be. The multicultural movement and bilingual education efforts are significant contributors to Balkanization and you can see what harm they are doing. And you just want to make it worse!?!
This is one of the reasons we can't fight a war any longer; there is no longer a core set of beliefs and values in this country. And your efforts to split the schools into potentially hundreds or thousands of smaller factions would make this problem many times worse!
In the past, somewhat universal military service provided an additional acculturating experience, but that has long since been eliminated.
You really should consider the law of unintended consequences, and the dangers of getting what you wish for!
If you think a politically neutral school is possible then please outline one for us. I will have great fun with it.
My husband and I taught our children the minimum basics of evolution but it was framed within a God-centered worldview. The two younger now have B.S degrees in math at 18. One was awarded a masters degree at 20, and the other is pursuing a degree in chemical engineering. ( Plenty of science in our family even with all the “God stuff”! )
But,...The anointed evolutionist priesthood evidently thinks they can make better decisions for a child than the child's own parents. And....have no scruples about turning the threat of armed police action on their neighbor. Remember behind every government K-12 stand police ready to force attendance and to collect the taxes .
The evolutionists whine and cry about how creationists and IDers want to force religion on them! Are they kidding? Ann Coulter is right! When a liberal/Marxist cries that he is the “victim” look a little closer and you will soon see he is the **OPPRESSOR!**
Every IDer and creationist I know favors privatization of K-12 schools. It is the evolutionists who want children herded into government schools ( under threat of armed police action) and taxpayers threatened with sheriffs auction of their property if they refuse to pay for it.
Yeah! Real nice guys these evolutionists. I think they are bullies.
You want a legal case? Well...It starts with an idea! The idea is that government schools never were, are not now, and never can be religious neutral.
Behind every government school stands an armed policeman with real bullets in that gun on the hip...and...The evolutionists are standing proudly beside him. ( By the way, in our county the police wear brown shirts.)
(Please read my tag.)
Good! I have a fellow traveler.
As posted previously we taught the basics of evolution in our homeschool but it was framed withing the context of Christian worldview.
I disagree with the young earthers for all the reasons you cited...but...Hey! Even if a YEC choose a YEC private school for their kid, all is not lost. If the child really wishes to pursue science there are always remedial courses at the community college.
The underlying problem here is **not**evolution or creationism or Intelligent Design. The fundamental problem is that government schools trample freedom of conscience.
Unfortunately what you ask for would lead to total Balkanization.
I'm afraid that the results would be far less productive than you expect. We are seeing way to much Balkanization now, and you want to remove the single best socializing and acculturating vehicle we have?
Its nice for everyone to march to a different drummer, but that's no way to run a parade.
Like William Jennings Bryan's anti-evolution crusade, your response smacks of Progressivism, "we must all march together to our glorious common perfect future." BS. I went to both public schools and private; the private schools had far less money (because the parents, not the taxpayers, were footing the bills) but the private schools provided a far more educationally-oriented and caring setting. Many of the public school teachers acted like what they were--petty bureaucrats. While there are good public schools, those are the schools who have students from well-off, well-educated parents. The most educationally needy students are totally failed by public schooling.
And with Creationists training their youth to harass science teachers ("Where you there?"), and parents harassing administrators, in many schools evolution-related, and even other science-related topics that could offend YECcers get short-shrift.
Meanwhile, public schools teach "civil rights" (the goodness of gay sex) and environmentalism as a religion.
And NEA/Democrat Party unions hold the children of our communities hostage.
No, winter is right.
Does the parade goose step? ( just wondering)
And when did government schools become the “best” at anything especially “socialization” and “acculturation” ?
You'll wish for the good old days when this country has 20 or 30 major languages and ethnic/religious groups, all clustering into different ghettos, each with their own schools, churches etc., cultures and the like.
Look at the problems Europe is having with these non-assimilated ghettos--and you want to bring that here. No thanks.
No we are not. Multiculturalism and bilingual education are follies mostly of the tax-payer funded, public school systems, in most cases against the will of parents. Public school systems have been captured in large part by the left and have little interest in incubating traditional culture and values.
Signing off for now, I expect we'll discuss this in the future...
You obviously have NO clue about how precedents are set. Your statement is so far off base, I will not even bother to address your other comments. If there is no appellate decision, there is no precedent. It's as simple as that. Even if there was an appellate decision in that circuit in this case, it would not be binding on any other circuit.
You keep moving the goalposts. First, you were discussing religious neutrality, now it's political neutrality. In the context of teaching evolution, at least, political neutrality is quite easily reached by simply teaching the scientific consensus on the theory.
But,...The anointed evolutionist priesthood evidently thinks they can make better decisions for a child than the child's own parents.
I'm not sure how teaching a scientific theory that is accepted by the overwhelming majority of scientists in the relevant fields in any way takes decision-making out of the hands of parents. Do you object to the teaching of the theory of gravity, or the germ theory of infection?
Remember behind every government K-12 stand police ready to force attendance and to collect the taxes.
Basically, you don't like the fact that the people in your county or state have made the legitimate decision, through the democratic process, to fund public schools. Well, too bad for you. If you can get enough of your fellow citizens to change these laws, more power to you. But, until you do, you are bound to follow such laws. The whining is unbecoming for a supposed conservative.
You want a legal case? Well...It starts with an idea! The idea is that government schools never were, are not now, and never can be religious neutral.
If you are suffering under such a terible injustice, why don't you file a lawsuit in Federal court, rather than just anonymously whining on a website?
( By the way, in our county the police wear brown shirts.)
You're now comparing the local police in your county to Hitler's brown shirts? That's laughable and insulting to anyone who actually had to live under the reign of terror of the real brown shirts. Your hyperbole is disgusting.
I'd have removed him from the bench instantly (had I the power to do so).
The guy scandalized everybody in government who ever has to make decisions that skirt around questions of religion, and most particularly the validity or invalidity of any particular religious belief.
As far as the plaintiffs asking the judge to do that, he should have simply refused to do so ~ it ain't his business, and the First Amendment says so.
Reminder to coyoteman, this ain't England!
They are limited to a purely secular view. Else, they enter into theological dispute and our law has no room for such things.
Give you an example ~ hospitals. You go to a hospital and the attending physician is simply a private individual who has permission to practice in that hospital.
The nurses could well be employed by your insurance company, or the physician or physicians group doing the work on you, or they might be part of a nonprofit charitable trust contracted with by the hospital to provide necessary services to practitioners.
Schools could readily be operated the exact same way.
Something like that anyway.
The problem is the nature of the public schools, not the nature of the fundie beliefs, nor of science.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.