Posted on 09/02/2008 3:13:16 AM PDT by Pistolshot
Free Republic Gun Club Tuesday Pocket Pistols!!!!!!
Morning. Todays FRGC article is about those misunderstood, mouse guns. The smallish pocket 22s, 25s, 32s, 380s. I will limit the discussion around these calibers and to the revolver/autos available, simply because once you get outside this range you get into larger, holster-necessary type of firearms. I am also not dismissing the derringer type of weapons, but that is another category entirely.
The mouse guns have a good/bad history. Generally, of the smaller calibers, they have the drawback of effectiveness or lack thereof. I carry a pocket pistol in a variety of calibers, from 22 to the .380, it really depends on dress for the day. As with all CCW weapons available, make sure you are proficient with the firearm you carry. Practice with pocket guns is even more necessary, IMHO, simply because the sights are rudimentary at best, and totally useless at worst. Remember, you are carrying a less effective cartridge and any confrontation will be an iffy thing. But, any gun is better than a hand, knife or fist.
I will give a nod to the PM Kahrs. The micro size in 9mm, 40 S&W, and even the PM45 can be considered in the Pocket category.
The PM9/40 is by far the smallest of the pocket pistols in a major caliber. Literally the same size as many 380s it carries the power for self defense at the cost of number of rounds. Something to consider.
The PM45 is slightly larger and is limited to a 5+1 capacity. Having looked one over (finally) I would choose it over the 9 for certain occasions.
So lets get into the mouse guns, the ones you can put in a front pocket like a set of keys and not even know its there. Since I mentioned the Kahr, lets look at their newest entry into the small pistol market. The Kahr P380. Even smaller than the PM series, the P380 is the size of the Kel-Tec 380/Ruger LCP. The polymer frame makes it light and pocketable. The DA only action makes it extremely safe and reliable. One thing about the Kahrs, appealing to me, is the way the slide is mated to the frame. There is a steel block towards the rear of the slide and the front rides on 2 steel rods in the dust cover, offering a larger area of control and lockup for the barrel. One to consider for pocket carry.
Moving on, lets look at the KelTec32/380. These are very popular with police as a backup, individual professionals, motorcyclists, and for women. The polymer frame and size make it ideal to carry in a purse or pocket. For police, most of them carry it in the pouch in the front of the vest they wear. There have been reports of reliability problems with the .380 version, but I have nothing to substantiate the claims. The ones we have sold have been reliable and not really brought in for trade.
The Ruger LCP is almost a clone of the KelTec, and some of us are of the opinion that there may be a copyright or patent issue the two are so similar in construction.
North American Arms makes a huge variety of stainless steel pistols and revolvers for pocket carry. They are some of my favorites and are extremely popular with just about everyone. I carry a couple of different ones. First, the mini-revolvers. 5-shot in calibers from 22 Short to 22 Magnum, the NAA minis are pocket revolvers in the extreme. Grips are tiny and hardly manageable if firing, BUT , with these grips installed, they are as manageable as any other firearm.
The pocket from NAA I carry on occasion is the Guardian. Manufactured in 25, 32, 32NAA, and 380, the guardian is a reliable, stainless pocket gun. The 32 NAA cartridge is a 380 case necked down to 32. The verdict is still out on the effectiveness of this one.
Berreta makes a number of pocket autos and has some that have a distinct advantage, the pop-up barrel.
A few weeks ago, a young lady came in with her daughter and a revolver to trade. She could not pull the trigger on the older Charter Arms and was looking to trade for something her arthritis could handle. With the tip-up barrel, and in .32, the Tomcat was the answer for her. She was able to handle the trigger and the loading and it will still be a reliable and effective defensive handgun for her and her daughter.
Lastly, for me, is the LWS Seecamp. Possibly the Cadillac of pocket pistols. Exquisitely made, the Seecamp in stainless has one of the best DA trigger pulls in the pocket arena. It is also priced that way. But you get the highest quality in a performance pistol you can get.
How could I end this introduction without mentioning the AMT backup? In 380 caliber, the Backup was one of the first true pocket pistols that exhibited the features of the mouse guns. Small in size and caliber, this little gem is still a popular choice in pocket pistols. Now out of production, the Backup is still available in used, and almost new condition from gun dealers. We get them in trade on occasion and they might last a week. If you are looking for a good reliable 380 pistol, at a decent price, the Backup could be for you.
Well, there you have it from me to start the thread for the day. Pocket pistols are rapidly becoming a favorite for carry or backup. As I said in the beginning, pocket pistols should be considered if the weather you live in might require something smaller to carry, or you have special requirements that necessitate a smaller type of firearm. Potency, as always, depends on shot placement, and with the mouse-guns, its far more important. Something to remember.
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The down side was a relatively heavy trigger and tiny sights.
After the gun control act of 1968 FIE began importing all the parts except the frame and assembling them into basic copies of the Colt and Astra. The quality was acceptable but not as good as the earlier guns. The Original Colt Junior was designed by Browning and was hammerless. They were all very fine pocket pistols.
I had a Bernardelli in .22 Long, not LR. it was even smaller than the baby Browning. It was a jewel of a little gun but a large number of them have had the extracter blown off by someone thinking they could use .22LR rounds in them.
While the J-frame is small and compact, it is in that iffy range of holster/no hoster carry. The pocket holsters available are kind of bulky and the bulge of the cylinder is a dead giveaway of gun.
Except that people just don't look at pockets.
I had a Kahr that I wanted to love.
But about every other magazine I had a FTE/FTF.
Took it completely apart, slide and all, polished everything, lubed.
Same problem.
Finally gave up, sold it and bought an S&W .40MPc.
Haven’t shot it that much but love it. Far more accurate than the P9. Wife likes it also.
The price is right on the MP’s also. (or was a few months ago.)
Years ago when I was panning gold in AZ,carried a Ruger Blackhawk 45LC on my hip but had a Raven .25 for pocket gun....what a POS...when you pulled the trigger the safest place was right in front of it...stove-piped every last round.
I have a seecamp .32 as well as an AMT .45 Auto “backup” and a new Rohrbaugh 9mm pocket pistol..........
http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/
Waited for ever for the Seecamp as Larry’s waiting list was long back in the 80’s and have used nothing but the recommended silvertips. The AMT 45 Auto backup is a beast to shoot ! Bigger that the Rohrbaugh 9mm pocket rocket !
When forced into a buisness suit for work I have the little seecamp in a galco popup IWB holster and the Rohrbaugh rides in a ken null shoulder rig w/ one spare mag. That is as compact and small as I get for places I have to wear something other than baggy shirt and jeans.
I recommend all of these small handguns shy of the AMT 45 backup !
That one is a little to much for such a small gun IMO.
Good thread !..........Stay safe !
Sounds like you got a bad one but the Raven, despite being cast out of pot metal had an extremely good reputation for reliability. Better than most Smith & Wesson Autos of the same period.
Shy of the Ruger Mk-I and II and 22/45 .22 series of target guns I know of no one in my arena for work , competition and or fellow IDPA shooters that uses a ruger semi-automatic. Their Blackhawks, Vaqueros, Bisley’s and Redhawk’s are AWESOME handguns and I own many of those. Just never liked the fit and finish of the ruger semi-auto’s mentioned. Even the small pocket pistol designs stolen from others......Bet Bill Ruger wouldn’t have approved that were he still at the helm.
I did fix the stove-piping with a new clean mag,but the thing was never exactly a “nail driver” in accuracy.
Rugers have varied quite a bit in finish but fit has always been first rate. I did have an early new model Super Blackhawk which had a very fine finish. Most of my .45 and .357 Blackhawks had mediocre finishes but still had that near perfect fit.
Agree 100%
I have a custom .500 Linebaugh Bisley Ruger and LOVE it !
A few Vaqueros and Bisley 45 Colt, A old 3 screws flattop that as you state is perfect and a few other 44 mag’s. A SP-101 that was reworked and had an action job by Cylinder and slide and is a cherry little shooter ! I have two of the redhawks and want to pick up a Super Redhawk in the 45/454 caliber..... One other conversion I have seen Linebaugh do that I want is a GP-100 44 special conversion !
Then we get in to ruger number 1’s.......:o)
Any opinions of this little gadget as a replacement for a pocket holster?
I seem to be hard on pocket pistols. My LW Seecamp 25 eventually cracked the slide near the recoil spring guide hole, and my Kel-Tec 32 wore down the area where the barrel locks into the slide, leaving a peened locking lug that would no longer fire reliably. Both happened in less than 1000 rounds.
Might think about a leather type pocket holster to protect the weapon.
People buying a tiny pistol should know that these very handy guns may not be as durable as conventional, full-sized pistols. We are supposed to practice with what we carry, but I think long sessions at the range will batter these small guns beyond what their designers intended. The Seecamp probably would not have had any problems if I had recognized the weak recoil spring earlier and changed it.
I have used one of those on my seecamp and a small j frame smith yet do not like em at all............waste of money as they offset the purpose of a small compact hideout that is dehorned IMO etc ......
I vote no on that accessory......:o)
Anyone have any suggestions?
I have two: first, obtain and practice with something intirm, something that with your existing skill and experience should get you by until you decide on something better. even if it is not your eventual choice, it will be a baseline weapon that should get you buy until something better comes along.
My own previous choice along these lines was a former East German Stasi 9mm Makarov, but after extensive carry of it, it sort of stuck to a female friend of mine who finds it fits her hand and attitude a lot better than the Beretta M9s that she had used in her previous USAF position. So she's offered me a replacement of my choice, either another similar Makarova or something else.
I tend toward something in a larger caliber, but I'm leaning toward picking up a replacement pocket gun for two reasons: the old S&W M49 .38 revolver that I've had and used for four decades is getting more than a bit loose and tired and deserves its honourable retirement after that long and faithful service. And having a second or *back-up* piece even when I'm carrying something else with which I'm more capable gives me the option of arming a qualified ally who for whatever reason, usually legal, is unarmed.
I've been looking pretty hard at the Polish P64 pistol, a tad more compact than the PM Makarov. But there are other excellent choices as well.
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