Could you be a Socialist? (Vanity)

[gondramB]

I am not asking “could you be a socialist in the United States?” - . And I'm not talking about Liberals who mix in socialist ideas against an American backdrop.

I mean... if you were born in a country that was nominally capitalist and yet everyone you knew was poor and while there were rich people around, you had no hope that you could improve your lot, do you think that you would be able to fall for socialism?

What brought this up was watching a Che Guevera biography with my 14 year old brother.

In the biography, people who knew Che talked proudly about how when the power company raised electricity rates , Che's gang smashed the streetlights. I asked my brother what he thought about that. He said it would just make electricity even more expensive and it was probably the poor people who needed the street lights.

Che is famous for a comment asking why some people make 20 pesos and others make 100 pesos and how evil that is. This apparently inspired the poor to follow him

My brother who is saving for his car, giving up video games to save money and help Dad figure out how to invest the money being saved for his college said maybe the people who made more money worked harder - or they studied more in school.

Now, I'm mainly happy to see my brother being resistant to socialism. But it got me wondering.

Isn't his resistance a function of the country he lives in and what his family has taught him plus a good head on his shoulders? Surely we are not born resistant to socialism.

Lacking that, wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that equal distribution is "more fair?" And further as long as the third world is run by corruption and the common people have no hope won't we always have the promise of a "socialist solution" emerging over and over in different guises?

I don't see a way we can "fix them" until they emerge enough to begin to fix themselves. It can happen - South Korea, Taiwan, Poland etc come to mind but much of the 3rd world is Muslim and their desire to fight everything Western seems to me to be a perpetual problem. Even wealthy Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia have a large socialist structure.

I'd be interested in hearing thoughts or criticism. I know this is a pretty negative outlook.

[Greg F]

I’m not sure that Americans who are exposed to conservative ideas are firm anymore. I’ve had several people here at Free Republic defend compulsory universal healthcare because Romney implemented it in Mass. If Freepers are confused about whether free markets work then it will be very hard to persuade new immigrants or people raised into socialism that free markets work.

[mnehring]

...if you were born in a country that was nominally capitalist and yet everyone you knew was poor and while there were rich people around, you had no hope that you could improve your lot, do you think that you would be able to fall for socialism?

I think you've hit the failing point of the socialist argument, assuming that 'you have no hope you could improve...' I'm not talking about the empty, rhetorical hope of Obama, but that core belief that life is in your own hands and you will not let outside influence control your life. The socialist mantra wants you to believe that you don't have control and thus you should give it up to the system. That seems to just perpetuate the problem that you don't have control. In the case of giving it up to socialism, it just takes it one step further because in the example, it is perceived loss of control, but by giving it up to the system, you are freely releasing control.

[gondramB]

>>I’m not sure that Americans who are exposed to conservative ideas are firm anymore. I’ve had several people here at Free Republic defend compulsory universal healthcare because Romney implemented it in Mass. If Freepers are confused about whether free markets work then it will be very hard to persuade new immigrants or people raised into socialism that free markets work.<<

That’s a reasonable concern. I don’t understand how elements of conservatism have wound up opposing free trade, supporting protectionism and in general sounding more like Teamsters than Reagan Republicans.

But the motivation is that same as those poor people Guevera - fear and lack of hope. The difference is we can self correct.

[gondramB]

>>I think you’ve hit the failing point of the socialist argument, assuming that ‘you have no hope you could improve...’ <<

I wonder if our Television and movies... even the wretched shows do give the third world an inescapable view that there is another choice.. at least another possibility. Even then, they may believe its not a possibility for them.

[absolootezer0]

yup, i could be a socialist.. if i was the guy in charge.

[gondramB]

>>yup, i could be a socialist.. if i was the guy in charge.<<

OK... but that’s kind of cheating.

The folks in charge of socialist countries are just about the least socialist people on the planet.

There’s a old joke about Leonid Brezhnev showing his mother around all the fancy stores that only Soviet party officials could shop at while ordinary people stood in kine for hours for toilet paper. She just gets more and more worried and finally says “But Leonid, what if the Bolsheviks come back?”

[Greg F]

This is a remarkable article that mentions in an off-hand way trade, but in a way that may enhance understanding . . . http://shoulung.wordpress.com/2007/04/22/open-letter-to-president-bush/

[gondramB]

Thank you - I’ve bookmarked that for reading this evening.

[Old Sarge]

the motivation is that same as those poor people Guevera - fear and lack of hope. The difference is we can self correct.

The situation is the same with conservatives: fear and lack of hope. Given McCain, Hucakbee, baraq Husayn ibn Mahomet, and She Who Must Not Be Named, what hope to conservatives have?

And I am running out of hope of the idea that the system can correct itself. A Socilaist object in motion tends to stay in motion, unless acted upon by an outside force.

[kidd]

If someone says that a math problem is taxing their brain, and you wonder if everyone is going to get a little smarter...you might be a socialist.

If you saw 'The Matrix' and thought it was a good idea...you might be a socialist.

If you are disgusted by all the food on the shelves at a supermarket...you might be a socialist.

If you think a ten month wait for a maternity ward is acceptable...you might be a socialist.

[antisocial]

From Discoverthenetwork:

One of the great myths of the left is that socialism is a movement of the people, the working classes, or the poor. In fact — as Frederick Hayek pointed out long ago — all socialist movements are the creation of intellectual elites, liberally pollinated by millionaires. Karl Marx was the kept intellectual of factory owner Frederick Engels; Bill Ayers, a leader of the terrorist cult called the Weatherman, was a scion of the American upper class; Katrina vanden Heuvel, editor of The Nation, is a multi-millionairess; Michael Moore, leftwing propagandist, is a multi-millionaire who has profited handsomely from the “struggle.” The Leftwing Millionaires Club is a very incomplete list designed to illustrate this point and to serve as a reminder that everything is not always what it appears. (Text: Frederick Hayek “The Intellectuals and Socialism,” in Hayek, Socialism and War, University of Chicago Press, 1997)

[gondramB]

>>And I am running out of hope of the idea that the system can correct itself. A Socilaist object in motion tends to stay in motion, unless acted upon by an outside force.<<

While I love physics, that objects that your analogy is drawn from is not self aware or able to move on its own accord.

I’ve seen American governance where it looked the Democrats would control the house forever and then I’ve seen the “permanent Republican majority” and now I see conservatism being written off. I am comforted that changed has always occurred when it seemed unlikey in American politics.

That said, I am not thrilled about the short term prospects but there is hope.

[gondramB]

Thank you - funny as heck.

[gondramB]

>>One of the great myths of the left is that socialism is a movement of the people, the working classes, or the poor. In fact — as Frederick Hayek pointed out long ago — all socialist movements are the creation of intellectual elites, liberally pollinated by millionaires.<<

We were talking above (post #7, I think) of how socialist leaders are often the least socialist.

But then I would bet Scientology leaders are the least likely to truly believe - and are mainly interested in money and power.