Subject for today -- the hero. One sort of hero I always liked is the come-from-behind hero. Like Sydney Carton, a completed unexpected heroic action from someone who seems like a loser.
Posted on 03/23/2007 11:44:31 AM PDT by Eleutheria5
Squarebarb:
There were some of us including GOPpoet who were thinking of starting a writer's thread here on FR. There's a horse thread, a football thread, a Hobbit Hole thread, so why not a thread for us writers?
And mainly sticking to fiction otherwise the discussion tends toward politicsa iinstead of the craft of writing.
Okay Eleutheria5, YOU start the thread."
Eleutheria5:
On it. Could use some help from someone who knows how to do HTTP and other techy stuff, though. Tried to learn, but drat that right hemisphere dominance we creative folks have. I've actually been running a board on the aol writers' club since 1996 called Conservative Writers' Club. Mostly it simply fights flame wars with liberal writers, though, and all the conservative contributors, including me, burn out. It'd be great to get away from that and just swap ideas with people who DON'T wish every one of us a flaming death.
(Excerpt) Read more at freerepublic.com ...
Let’s do it. I don’t have school tomorrow (but must finish this silly Ottoman paper) so I can really participate!
If you are looking for the passage of a lot of time (like years) then maybe a little bit of current history.
For example: Clinton gave way to the son of the man he defeated. Or: In the intervening years, the Towers fell, etc. Or finally, Henry Fonda won his Oscar.
You could do it that way as well.
Subject for today -- the hero. One sort of hero I always liked is the come-from-behind hero. Like Sydney Carton, a completed unexpected heroic action from someone who seems like a loser.
I never considered him a come from behind hero. He was my favorite from the time he looked behind him, saw Mr. Darnay, sat up in his chair, and wadded up the note to Stryver. (Is that his name...fuzzy memory) But I think you could describe him as such.
I love him. He's the carton in my name. When I signed up for FR, I didn't realize what all went into the screen name. If I did, I would have been Sydney Carton.
The other hero I like is Jean Valjean. I will write more tomorrow since I am dashing between classes.
I also think Samwise Gamgee is another great hero in literature.
Everyone keep the conversation going...
Sam Gamgee is wonderful. His great moment is in the cave with Shelob and Tolkien intends very much to present him as the hero and does a great job of it.
“And still Sam came on...”
Carton, this thread may truly be dead. I will tell Eleutheria to ping but I am losing hope...
Read Vico’s comments on the Heroic Age and then file that idea. But, if the piece takes place 2500 years ago it might be appropriate.
Aragorn as portrayed in the novels, for example, is heroic and perfect, and if I may say so, downright wooden at times. His story only becomes interesting when considered against the larger backdrop of history that Tolkien provides in glimpses.
Peter Jackson understood this when rendering the story on film, and had to alter Aragorn (which he did fairly subtly) to give him internal conflict. The Aragorn of the novels is sailing a straight course on a clear path to his destiny, which he knows, fully understands, and accepts; the Aragorn of the films faces difficult choices with uncertainty. With Jackson's Aragorn it's desire vs. destiny, and how to chart a right course between the two.
Did he succeed? Inasmuch as the story is about Aragorn, which it mostly isn't, I would say yes. Tolkien purists may gasp at my heresy, but there it is. =]
Not at all. True heroes are way stronger than anybody else. Their flaws might be in that they lack civic skills themselves even while founding cities.
Yes, which is the dilemma of the main character in ‘The Road’.
Come on, guys...I drag Tolkien and his creation Aragorn through the dirt, and nobody has anything to say about it? =]
Sit down and hold on tight...
You are absolutely right about Tolkien's version of Aragon. Aragon is settled and has no conflict. But, even though Tolkien denies it, Aragon is a type of Christ, so I don't think there would be a conflict. He knows what he must do.
Jackson understood that Aragorn must be nuanced and gives him a conflict of fear (will he be Isildur's heir or rise above the weakness in his blood).
In fact, that is why I placed Samwise Gamgee as the hero of the book. Sam is an every man in extraordinary circumstances doing what is necessary to fulfill his role. That to me is a hero.
Or a hero is Pippin, who does what is right even though he is frightened.
Now, speaking of characters, the most interesting character in Lord of the Rings is Smeagol. I believe he was Tolkien's favorite and that is why he is drawn so richly.
Now you’re confusing me. Nef’al is a form, not a voice. It can also be used for reflexive purposes, similar to hitpael. The passive voice, as I was taught it, is Pa’ul, or as the flip side of the Hif’il, or causative, the Huf’al.
Now in Arabic, you have something similar in all 10 types of verbs, namely the fu’al, which is the actual passive voice. My memory is probably going to play tricks on me, but Type V would be Infa’ala, and I won’t even try to recall Type VII, though I’d recognize it if I see it.
For the marriage of his adopted daughter Cosette to Marius to be truly legal, he must reveal that he is an escaped convict, who broke his parole. Now, he does not have to do that. No one would probably have intervened in the marriage, but Valjean wants the marriage to be above reproach. It costs him Cosette because Marius is horrified at Valjean's past.
I think heros are what we wished we could be and that's why they come in all shapes and forms. For the longest time, Rhett Butler was my hero because he did not care what people thought about him, and I wish I had that strength.
Now my heros are Robert E. Lee and Thomas Jackson for the way they lived their lives. I see strength, honor, fidelity to duty, and personal integrity. I do not see perfection, but these are the types of men I wish to emulate in my own life.
Sydney Carton might be a drunk and someone who wasted his life, but his ability to love Lucie Manette (will someone please tell Mr. Dickens how to write a female character) unto death is a character trait that I greatly admire.
Smeagol is heartbreaking...very, very good.
Worst heroic character I ever encountered would have to be John Galt. Rand makes him so perfect, he doesn’t even scream when he’s tortured. No room for organic growth, no interest in him as more than a symbol, and as Coleridge points out in Biographia Literaria, a hero who is merely a symbol fails, just as a “hero” who does nothing more than surprise the reader with uncharacteristically heroic behavior (in modern parlance, a non-hero) without standing for anything is also a failure. John Galt should have stayed a question. Once I learned who he is, I no longer wanted to know.
Arabic I know a little better. Type VII is Infa'ala and is passive with strength: I was forced to do.
Group V is tfa'ala and is passive: I have been doing. Each group has a passive tense... but these two groups are passive voice.
There is a way to make a “perfect” hero interesting: Have his true feelings pop up unexpectedly. For example, Odysseus, when he approaches Nausicaa. He blesses her with finding a compatible husband, and when he expounds on the virtues of a man and woman of like mind, it becomes clear to the reader that he is longing for Penelope, a fact of which Nausicaa is ignorant.
Another interesting character is Menelaos, who says to Telemachus that if only Odysseus had made it home, he would have exiled the inhabitants of an entire town and moved Odysseus and his people there, just so they could spend time together. Gee, I wonder why Helen ran out on this bastard. But there, too, the facade has cracks and we see beneath to the real man, only this time it ain’t pretty.
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