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To: LowOiL
"Jesus most definately supported the death penality. I quoted two NEW TESTIMENT quotes by Jesus that said that the OT rule still applies

I didn't see where Jesus supported it at all. You quoted Matt 15:3-4 as follows. "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying... `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." This is taken completely out of context. The full meaning can be seen when the full passage is given.

Matt 15:3-9
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[Exodus 20:12; Deut. 5:16] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[Exodus 21:17; Lev. 20:9] But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[Isaiah 29:13]"

Notice Jesus is not addressing the death penalty at all. What He is addressing is the fact that the Pharisees and teachers of the law have demanded that a father(or mother), not be honored. They said God should be honored and that's all He mentioned. The death penalty was not addressed and that was done on purpose. It was done so that men were left to expose their hearts.

You also gave... " * "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets... Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great..." Mat. 5:17-19
Has Heaven and Earth passed away yet? Didn't think so... But just in case... Jesus said quite plainly in the first part that he had NO intention of destroying Moses's law whatsoever."

Well, let's see! Matt 19:3-9
Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"

"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[Gen. 1:27] and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'[Gen 2:24]? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

John 8:1-11
But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Notice hear that Jesus made a correction in the law given by Moses. God desires mercy. Matt 1-8
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."

He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,'[Hosea 6:6] you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

...and God desires love. Matt 22:34-
Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[Deut 6:5] This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[Lev. 19:18] All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

All the Law and the Prophets! From what I see in what God said, it is in one's character and what is in one's heart that's important. That concept is contained in the verse from Matt 5 you stopped short of posting. Matt 5:20
"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

When He taught men to pray, He said in Matt 6:12 "Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."

John 13:8-17 "No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."

"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!"

Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. "You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

The person of God is the Holy Spirit. He came here to teach the what the law means and what He values. He obviously did not desire, or promote the death penalty. What He desires is that men follow the Holy Spirit, not the hardness of heart found in the Mosaic law.

240 posted on 12/03/2006 6:48:41 PM PST by spunkets
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To: spunkets
I didn't see where Jesus supported it at all. You quoted Matt 15:3-4 as follows. "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying... `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." This is taken completely out of context. The full meaning can be seen when the full passage is given.

It if even clearer in full context. For brevity I abbreviated the passage, but thank you for posting the full. First Jesus asks "Why" they broke the commandment and then he answers it "because of their tradition". Then Jesus paraphrases OT Moses law to Honor parents and that the Pharisees WERE NOT doing as commanded in putting disobediant children to punishment (death). Then He explains in their hearts why they chose not to obey God's law (given to Moses). Because they hoped for future gains from their children so they can hypocritically give it to God.

Now lets see what the Bible has to say about doing evil that it might bring forth good in the future (like voting for a bad politician hoping it will help the party later on)...Romans 3:8 (King James Version)

And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Romans 6:1-2

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Then later in the Matthew 15 passage... Jesus futher chastises the Hypocrites for not following Moses's (God's) law and instead choosing to follow "man's law".

It can't be more crystal clear unless you have a plank in your eye.

Notice Jesus is not addressing the death penalty at all. What He is addressing is the fact that the Pharisees and teachers of the law have demanded that a father(or mother), not be honored. They said God should be honored and that's all He mentioned. The death penalty was not addressed and that was done on purpose.

Jesus is clearly addressing the fact that these people have stopped obeying Moses (God's) laws. They have twisted things to try and look good, but when you add to the truth you actually are subtracting from it and God was NOT pleased because they had decided to try to bend the law for their own purpose. Thus the law untruthful to it's source and they invented a "man's law". Jesus was not ashamed one bit that the OT law was still in effect and required the life of unruley children.

Jesus cared for us, he knew that allowing children to dishonor their parents would cause the troubles like we have read in this tragic story (not only of the killed but the killer as well).

John 8:1-11 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Does the story of the woman caught in adultery, forgiven and released (John 8:3-11) negate the death penalty?

God Forgave Adulterers Before

Gomer was an adulteress yet God forgave her (Hos. 3:1). Still, He demanded that His people obey His law (Hos. 4:6).

King David committed adultery and murder (2 Sam. 11). Yet God forgave him (Psalm 32:1-5).

It was a conscious decision on God's part to not execute David. As Nathan said to David:

* "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. However... by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme..." 2 Sam. 12:13

Still, God's law remained in effect (Ps. 1:2; 19:7; 78:1, 5-8; 89:30-32; 119).

God forgave the New Testament adulterer just as He forgave Old Testament adulterers, in neither instance revoking His law. God has all authority to forgive the criminal and disregard temporal punishment. Contrariwise, Men must obey God and cannot ignore punishment.

The Pharisees Wanted to Trap Christ

The Pharisees wanted to accuse Jesus of rebelling against the Roman Empire:

* This [the Pharisees] said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. John 8:6

Rome had revoked the Jews' authority to put a criminal to death (John 18:31). A straight-forward answer to the Pharisees would have brought Jesus into premature conflict with Rome before His "hour had come." Jesus solved this problem stating, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first" (John 8:7). Christ often frustrated the Pharisees giving clever answers that thwarted their wicked intentions (Mat. 22:15-22; 21:21-27; Mark 12:13-17; Luke 20:20-26).

All the world is under the law:

* Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God... Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Rom. 3:19, 31

* Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Gal. 3:24-25

Christians who are untutored in the evangelistic role of the law oppose the foundation of the criminal code upon God's law.

When He taught men to pray, He said in Matt 6:12 "Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."

Emphasis above is mine.

You can forgive a debt owed to you, but not one owed to your neighbor. If your friend owes you $100 dollars, you can cancel that debt if you like; however, if your friend owes me $100, you have no such authority to cancel that debt. You can forgive a sin against you, but not a sin against your neighbor. Only God has authority to forgive a murderer/sinner and even He will not forgive the unrepentant murderer/sinner.

Jesus forgave sins and the scribes reasoned in their hearts, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mark 2:7). Thus Jesus realized that men would want evidence for His claim to be able to forgive sins:

* "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins" - He said to the man who was paralyzed, "I say to you, arise..." Luke 5:24; Mark 2:10-11

So parents of a murder victim should forgive to the extent that they have been hurt, which requires a tremendous amount of forgiveness to cover a tremendous amount of hurt. In America, sadly, their sorrow is agitated and increased by a government that mocks their grief through mercy to the murderer. How does a mother's broken heart heal when the wound is reopened each time her daughter's murderer is up for appeal, or sues the jail, or gets a photo in the newspaper.

not the hardness of heart found in the Mosaic law.

The only hardness has been caused by NOT following the Mosaic law and instead following "man's laws". We today reap that sorrow in buckets like this article details.

In conclusion (and due lack of time) ... I will leave ya with one more quote for you to attempt to twist.

The Apostle John also taught that you reap what you sow:

* ...he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Rev. 13:10

Sorry about the delay in responding, I work.

292 posted on 12/04/2006 3:51:53 PM PST by LowOiL ("I am neither . I am a Christocrat" - Benjamin Rush)
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