Posted on 11/27/2006 9:32:37 AM PST by Charles Henrickson
NEW YORK (AP) -- Mark McGwire, Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken Jr. headline the first-time candidates on the 2007 baseball writers' Hall of Fame ballot released Monday, sure to spark debate on Big Mac's place in history as the steroid era comes under renewed scrutiny.
Jose Canseco, whose book last year led to a congressional hearing on steroid use in baseball, also is on the ballot for the first time. Canseco said he used steroids along with McGwire when they were teammates.
McGwire denied using illegal performance-enhancing substances, but when he appeared before a congressional committee, he evaded questions. "I'm not here to talk about the past," was his repeated response.
McGwire finished his career with 583 home runs, seventh in baseball history while Canseco, a former MVP, is 30th at 462. Dave Kingman, 34th with 442, has the most home runs for a player who has been on the Hall of Fame ballot and was not elected.
Gwynn, an eight-time batting champion with San Diego, and Ripken, a two-time MVP with Baltimore, are considered likely to gain election on the first ballot. Ripken played in 2,632 consecutive games, breaking Lou Gehrig's record.
Bret Saberhagen, a two-time Cy Young Award winner, and former MVP Ken Caminiti also are among 17 players on the ballot for the first time along with Harold Baines, Dante Bichette, Bobby Bonilla, Scott Brosius, Jay Buhner, Eric Davis, Tony Fernandez, Wally Joyner, Paul O'Neill, Devon White and Bobby Witt.
Jim Rice, who was 53 votes short of election last year, heads the 15 holdovers. Rich Gossage finished one vote behind Rice.
Reporters who have been in the BBWAA for 10 or more consecutive years are eligible to vote, and the totals will be announced Jan. 9.
The complete ballot:
Harold Baines, Albert Belle, Dante Bichette, Bert Blyleven, Bobby Bonilla, Scott Brosius, Jay Buhner, Ken Caminiti, Jose Canseco, Dave Concepcion, Eric Davis, Andre Dawson, Tony Fernandez, Steve Garvey, Rich "Goose" Gossage, Tony Gwynn, Orel Hershiser, Tommy John, Wally Joyner, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Paul O'Neill, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Cal Ripken Jr., Bret Saberhagen, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Devon White, Bobby Witt.
2 MVP awards (the only other eligible player to win back-to-back MVP awards who is not in the Hall is Roger Maris)
5 Gold Gloves
4 Silver Slugger awards
7 All-Star appearances
Led the major leagues in home runs AND RBIs over the 10-year span from 1981 to 1990
Led the National League in games, at bats, runs, hits, extra base hits, RBI, runs created, total bases, and plate appearances in the 1980s
Accomplished a 30-30 season in 1983, at the time only the 6th player since 1922 to do so.
Between 1981 and 1986, Murphy played in 740 consecutive games, at the time the 11th longest such streak in baseball history
Lou Gehrig Memorial Award: 1985
Roberto Clemente Award: 1988
Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year: 1987
Named 49th Greatest Slugger of All-Time by The Sporting News (The Sporting News Selects 50 Greatest Sluggers book, by Tony DeMarco, March 2000)
Before a home game against San Francisco, Murphy visited in the stands with Elizabeth Smith, a six-year-old girl who had lost both hands and a leg when she stepped on a live power line. After Murphy gave her a cap and a T shirt, her nurse innocently asked if he could hit a home run for Elizabeth. "I didn't know what to say, so I just sort of mumbled 'Well, O.K.,' " says Murphy. That day he hit two homers and drove in all the Braves' runs in a 3-2 victory.
I will still stack Murph's credentials up against almost anyone's.
I can recite the whole lineup from memory, including uniform numbers (in my best Pat Peiper imitation.) I was born in '53 and grew up on the north side of the city, just a couple miles from Wrigley Field. I saw, whether in person or on TV--I literally saw most of the games that Ron Santo ever played. He was the best third baseman in the league, offensively and definsively, during the years he played.
I hope Ron gets in. He has been through so much and he well deserves it.
If Santo gets in, I will definitely go to Cooperstown for the induction ceremony--as will thousands of other Chicagoans.
I repeat..
Led the major leagues in home runs AND RBIs over the 10-year span from 1981 to 1990
Led the National League in games, at bats, runs, hits, extra base hits, RBI, runs created, total bases, and plate appearances in the 1980s
His peak was undoubtedly only a 3 to 4 year span, but I will defy anyone to say that from 1982 to 1987, Murphy was not only one of the best in the NL (alongsize Schmidt and Ozzie Smith), but that he was one of the best in the majors, period. :-)
Honus Wagner was one of the greatest players in history. The pre-Ruth era is overlooked by modern fans, but there were many great players in that era. Wagner, Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson are my favorites from that era.
However, his more-than-a-couple mediocre years still diminish the overall impact. Also, the offensive standard for outfielders and first basemen is significantly higher than for other positions. At best Murphy is marginal. The fact some other marginals made it in in the past should not lower the bar.
As founder and President of SBFBHOF (Shooty Babbit For Baseball Hall Of Fame) I may have a lot of work ahead of me. I am deeply saddened at his continued non-inclusion on the list of candidates.
Owl_Eagle
If what I just wrote made you sad or angry,
it was probably just a joke.
Outfielders? Name a few. In fact, name one.
Murphy would be strongly considered if he had played in Atlanta in the 90's instead of in the 80's. You play for a winner, people look fondly on you. You play for those who are out in August, people wonder if you had something to do with the losses. As team leader, it reflects even more strongly on you.
More career home runs (398) than HoF outfielders Joe DiMaggio (361), Hank Greenburg (331) and Kirby Puckett (207)
More career RBIs (1266) than HoF outfielders Ralph Kiner (1019) and Hack Wilson (1063) and soon-to-be HoFer Tony Gwynn (1138)
I haven't read it yet (except for an excerpt, which lead me to buying it), but I really look forward to reading "The Glory of Their Times."
Later on, when Joe Morgan emerged as the Reds MVP, I tried to do his shoulder pump. Never could get a hit that way!
As for McGwire, platying for my adopted hometown Cardinals, I'd like to see him elected to the Hall, but I just don't see it happening.
Somebody run the numbers on Dave Parker, Dale Murphy, and Andre Dawson. Three NL outfielders, overlapped--I think Parker came first, then Murphy, then Dawson--all three "plus" as defensive outfielders. My guess is that Murphy's total numbers aren't going to be any better than Parker's and probably not as good as Dawson's. If Murphy gets in, do Parker and Dawson? That, in turn, would lower the bar for others. Al Oliver, Tony Oliva, as veterans? Where do you draw the line?
Dawson had 438 home runs, 1591 RBIs and a lifetime BA of .279. He also had 1 MVP, 1 RoY, 8 gold gloves, and 4 Silver Slugger awards.
Very comparable to Murph, obviously. My question is, why would Dawson getting in (which I have no problem with) "lower the bar" for others? Exactly what criteria do you use? Nobody under 400 HRs? 1300 RBIs? A .300 average?
I think using just raw numbers is overrated. Hell, Don Freaking Sutton is in the HoF. Now, I like Don, and I know he won 300 games. But he also played for 23 YEARS!! He had exactly one 20-win season and only topped 15 wins once in his final 12 years.
Jack Morris -should- be in the Hall. When you win 162 games over a 10-year span, that in itself qualifies as dominance over a reasonably long period of time (there are guys whose entire careers don't last 10 years). Plus, that 10-inning complete-game shutout in game 7 of the '91 WS was the best single big-game pitching performance of the decade.
How about Jake Gibbs?
I grew up in Joliet but have been in AZ since '72. My dad used to take us to Spring Training EVERY weekend. I miss those days and I miss IL.
Dave Parker (1973-91): 2466 G, 339 HR, 1493 RBI, .290 AVG, .810 OPS, 154 SB/58 SB%
Dale Murphy (1976-93): 2180 G, 398 HR, 1266 RBI, .265 AVG, .815 OPS, 161 SB/70 SB%
Andre Dawson (1976-96): 2627 G, 438 HR, 1591 RBI, .279 AVG, .806 OPS, 314 SB/74 SB%
I saw all three of these guys play a lot of games. I would say Dawson is the best of the three, but even there I'm not sure he belongs in the Hall.
Who is Jake Gibbs?
Here are the quick run downs:
Dawson
BA 279
SLG 482
OBP 323
OPS 806
RBI 1591
Runs 1373
HR 438
FPCT 983
Parker
BA 290
SLG 471
OBP 339
OPS 810
RBI 1493
Runs 1272
HR 339
FPCT 966
Murphy
BA 265
SLG 469
OBP 346
OPS 815
RBI 1266
Runs 1197
HR 398
FPCT 982
Dawson's numbers are more impressive than I would have thought. Murphy is a bit better than Parker, but a raw look at the numbers would put Dawson in the lead. Murphy's leadership still has to be considered, but the fact that he wasn't on a winner still sits him in the "almost great" category.
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