Bush doesn't think America should be an actual place [Tancredo and WND stuff words into Bush's mouth

WorldNetDaily.com ^ | November 19, 2006 | Joe Kovacs

[itsahoot]

Even if Tancredo is right, and America is just a place,

He never said that, he said that President Bush believes that.

then why is it worth 'protecting' from those Mexicans he's so afraid of? What's so special about it that we must keep it 'pure' as he sees it?

Because he believes we have borders defining our federation of states, where in a government was established for the people by the people.

Want to give us a little history on how well that has worked out for you in Mexico?

[itsahoot]

Our country is depending on them in a future

Ahhh Sooooo, Self defense.

Just in case.......</ Sarcasm>

[itsahoot]

Reagan also hoped for borders to disappear so that people could cross freely......

Gee how strange, he also said this......

Any country that can not control its borders is not a country at all RR

[NapkinUser]

"If America is a place, and not an idea, what is being 'protected' by anti-immigration stances?"

The rule of law?

You may not like the law, but it's still the law. And it's not changing, as a majority in congress will never be reached to vote to legalize people who cross the border in the middle of the night with no documentation.

A nation withouts borders is not a nation. If these people love America, like you pretend they do, why don't they obey the laws? Why do they get forged documents like social security cards, a felony? Why do they march in the streets talking of Texas, California and some other parts of the southwest belonging still to Mexico? Why do they fly Mexican flags?

The open borders lobby never ceases to amaze me with their pure stupidity. Luckily Americans see through that. They did in Arizona. They did in Colorado. They do in the opinion polls showing majority support for increased border agents, support for a fence, more spending on border security, end of catch and release and all those secure borders positions.

[zbigreddogz]

Because they are next door. It's a lot more economically efficient for both of us.

That, and they are an overwhelmingly Catholic too, which I think is a good thing. I'd much perfer that to Muslims.

[zbigreddogz]

The rule of law?

You aren't following the conversation: This isn't about the 'rule of law', we are not talking about illegal immigration, but immigration period. Tancredo is against increases in legal immigration as well as illegal.

And I repeat my question: If America is a place, not an idea, what is he protecting by opposing immigration?

[raybbr]

Because they are next door. It's a lot more economically efficient for both of us.

What a great reason!!! Bring in millions of third-world people and expect the U.S. taxpayer to pay for their education and support.

Maybe you are willing to surrender to them but I am not.

That, and they are an overwhelmingly Catholic too, which I think is a good thing.

They are not the only Catholics that want to come here. Why just them?

Besides, what kind of Catholic steals from his neighbor? Isn't that against one of the Ten Commandments?

[zbigreddogz]

He never said that, he said that President Bush believes that.

You have it backwards. He's accusing Bush of believing that America is just an idea, not a place, while he's saying it's a place, not an idea. Read the article.

Because he believes we have borders defining our federation of states, where in a government was established for the people by the people.

If America is a place, not an idea, what exactly is the threat? How will immigration 'pervert' it if it is merely a place?

He may be right, if he admits America is more of an idea, then a place. Then he could credibly argue that, the idea that is America, is being perverted by too many people who do not share the idea. I'd disagree that most Latin Americans are a threat to American values, but his arguement would at least be logical.

As of now, it's fundementally illogical. On one hand, America is a place, not an idea, on the other, we need to protect the idea that is being perverted.

Want to give us a little history on how well that has worked out for you in Mexico?

I'm sure you are trying to make a point here, but nobody knows what it is.

[zbigreddogz]

What a great reason!!! Bring in millions of third-world people and expect the U.S. taxpayer to pay for their education and support.

Yah, because, everybody knows that people who work and have jobs and pay taxes are a drain on our economy.

Maybe if you are a Marxist, you might believe this, I guess.

Nobody is advocating that we invite bums over here. Every proposal on increased immigration is tied to work. Sorry, you can't spin this one your way. Your position makes no sense.

They are not the only Catholics that want to come here. Why just them?

I already explained this. Supply and demand says that some are going to come nomatter what, since there is a demand and they have a supply, and there are not significant transaction costs to coming here.

This doesn't apply to, say, Italy, because Italy has this little bump called the Atlantic Ocean between us. That imposes a huge cost on being able to relocate. It only makes sense to allow your neighbors first.

Not to mention they do not have a significant supply of workers. That cannot be said of Central America.

[raybbr]

Yah, because, everybody knows that people who work and have jobs and pay taxes are a drain on our economy. Maybe if you are a Marxist, you might believe this, I guess.

Are you truly naive or are you pretending? Where I work all the new holy immigrants of yours are on the state run health care system paid for by my taxes. They are on the system because the company won't pay them enough money to pay the insurance co-pay.

These wonderful immigrants don't speak English only spanish. Are they learning English? No. Unless they go to a state provided school. Their children are put in ESL classes that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to maintain.

And, for God's sake don't lie to me and say they pay taxes. Some do but those that work for cash don't.

Marxism does not come into play for me. Americanism does. I guess that's something you despise.

Nobody is advocating that we invite bums over here. Every proposal on increased immigration is tied to work. Sorry, you can't spin this one your way. Your position makes no sense.

You are right. They are already here. I guess your idea of an immigrant is one who will wash toilets as opposed to one who comes here educated and with a trade.

I already explained this. Supply and demand says that some are going to come nomatter what, since there is a demand and they have a supply, and there are not significant transaction costs to coming here.

Not only a source of cheap labor but a cheap source, too? Just one step above the slave owner mentality? That's not American. It might be super-capitalism but it's not an ideal that I look up to.

This doesn't apply to, say, Italy, because Italy has this little bump called the Atlantic Ocean between us. That imposes a huge cost on being able to relocate. It only makes sense to allow your neighbors first.

Who allowed them? They snuck in in the middle of the night. If those are your heroes then you are just as bad as they are. You are advocating the supplanting of the U.S. culture to provide cheap labor so you can get your lawn cut. How cheap. The destruction the American way of life for a lawn.

By the way. Your Catholic argument is pointless. I was a Catholic and have distanced myself from the Church due to their claim that we should take these illegals in but they are unwilling to foot the bill.

What good Catholics they are stealing from and coveting their neighbor's goods.

They are more like leeches than good Catholics. A true Catholic would not sneak into his neighbor's home and steal his food and impose his will on his neighbor.

[zbigreddogz]

Are you truly naive or are you pretending? Where I work all the new holy immigrants of yours are on the state run health care system paid for by my taxes. They are on the system because the company won't pay them enough money to pay the insurance co-pay.

Even if you are right, which you aren't, and even if that wouldn't change if we had an effective guest worker program, which it would, you'd still be wrong, because the amount of money they bring in, and the amount of greater economic efficiency they create, overall creates more wealth then they take.

These wonderful immigrants don't speak English only spanish. Are they learning English? No. Unless they go to a state provided school. Their children are put in ESL classes that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to maintain.

So what? Do you think every parent who sends his kid to school is a 'drain on the economy?' Rediculous. Education leads to longterm wealth. No economist disputes that.

And, for God's sake don't lie to me and say they pay taxes. Some do but those that work for cash don't.

But most don't work for cash. And even if you were right, that wouldn't be the case if we had a guest worker program. A guest worker program would make sure they pay taxes, that's part of the reason for having one.

Marxism does not come into play for me. Americanism does. I guess that's something you despise.

Nope, I still see you spouting protectionist nonsense.

You are right. They are already here. I guess your idea of an immigrant is one who will wash toilets as opposed to one who comes here educated and with a trade.

As long as they have jobs and work, it doesn't matter to me. What, don't tell me you are one of these Massachussetts elitists who looks down at mechanics, construction workers, janitors, etc.

Not only a source of cheap labor but a cheap source, too? Just one step above the slave owner mentality? That's not American. It might be super-capitalism but it's not an ideal that I look up to.

One step up from slavery? 'super-capitalism'? Is that you Phil Donahue?

I guess I am a 'super-capitalist' in the sense that I think voluntary transactions between adults in which one pays the other to work, should not be controled by the government. That's called a free market.

I guess you think it should be controlled by the Government? Let me guess: Minimum Wage should be $25 an hour so they aren't working for 'slave wages'.

Who allowed them? They snuck in in the middle of the night.

I'm allowing them. That's why I favor a guest worker program.

If those are your heroes then you are just as bad as they are.

I'd be glad to be 'just as bad' as those toilet cleaners you look down upon. I'd rather be one of them then an elistis, arrogant, condencending person such as yourself.

You are advocating the supplanting of the U.S. culture to provide cheap labor so you can get your lawn cut.

AH!!! Now the real issue, it's not really about economics, it's that you feel threatened by Latin American culture.

Why didn't you say so in the first place?

How cheap. The destruction the American way of life for a lawn.

Yah, I'm sure those redneck hick Catholic 'toilet cleaners' from Mexico represent a threat to the American way of life. I mean, geeze, if we let too many of them over here, Burritos might become more common then Hot Dogs! We can't have that!

By the way. Your Catholic argument is pointless. I was a Catholic and have distanced myself from the Church due to their claim that we should take these illegals in but they are unwilling to foot the bill.

So my Catholic arguement is worthless because you oppose the Catholic stance on immigration? That's kinda circular reasoning, don't you think?

What good Catholics they are stealing from and coveting their neighbor's goods.

Who are they 'stealing' from? All they want is a job. I favor allowing them to legally come here and have that job.

Apparently, to you, wanting a job is 'stealing' from someone else. I don't suppose you run the Teamsters, do you? They are more like leeches than good Catholics. A true Catholic would not sneak into his neighbor's home and steal his food and impose his will on his neighbor.

[raybbr]

You will come with any excuse to allow illegals. It's pathetic.

By the way. How do all your excuses stack up against the fact that it's illegal to come here un-invited?

What, don't tell me you are one of these Massachussetts elitists who looks down at mechanics, construction workers, janitors, etc.

I am in the trades. So was my father. This tells me a lot. You are the one who looks down on those jobs or you never would have brought it up.

I guess I am a 'super-capitalist' in the sense that I think voluntary transactions between adults in which one pays the other to work, should not be controled by the government. That's called a free market.

That doesn't count. They are illegal.

Yah, I'm sure those redneck hick Catholic 'toilet cleaners' from Mexico represent a threat to the American way of life. I mean, geeze, if we let too many of them over here, Burritos might become more common then Hot Dogs! We can't have that!

Now who's looking down on them?

Apparently, to you, wanting a job is 'stealing' from someone else.

What is it about illegal that you don't get. Stealing is stealing. Period.

Even if all they are stealing is the fact they get to be here in the U.S. against the law. It's still stealing.

You are ok with people stealing from you as long as they are Catholic (I don't buy they are all Catholic and are therefore good) and not some other religion. Have you no sense of pride? Have you been indoctrinated into socialism so badly that not only do you believe they have a right to your wealth but mine as well? It sure seems it to me.

It's one of the basic tenets of socialism. "What's yours is mine." Only in this case it's "Su Casa es mi Casa". You just don't get it.

[itsahoot]

I'm sure you are trying to make a point here, but nobody knows what it is.

That is obvious, unless you actually know what is going on.

[zbigreddogz]

What part of, 'Guest workers are not illegal aliens,' don't you get?

The rest of your rant isn't worth responding to. You are the one that was condencending to blue collar workers, not me.

[zbigreddogz]

Please, by all means, grace me with your profound insight.

[raybbr]

What part of, 'Guest workers are not illegal aliens,' don't you get?

There is no such thing. Yet. Until you open borders crowd gets your way.

You are the one arguing something that doesn't exist. Illegals invaders do exist. But, you don't care.

The rest of your rant isn't worth responding to. You are the one that was condencending to blue collar workers, not me.

What is your reading comprehension level? About fourth grade?

I AM a blue collar worker. Or couldn't you understand that?

You are the socialist, however, that wants to forgive millions of people their crimes and allow them access to our wealth. You are the socialist that thinks that borders are an outdated concept.

Oh, by the way. Part the Constitution of the United States relates to protecting its citizens from foreign invasion. Is that just more outdated protectionism? To a socialist it would be. To an American it's the way it's supposed to be. America comes first.

[itsahoot]

There are a group of posters on these mmigration threads that are either paid, of have something to gain by slave labor, which group do you belong to?

[zbigreddogz]

I'm part of that group who believes in free trade and free markets, and is repulsed by the protectionist tripe that is coming out of the mouth of so-called 'conservatives' based on the immigration issue.

I'm also part of the group that is repulsed by the notion that somehow only people born in America are capable of appreciating the benefits of free markets, free trade, hard work and self-governance.

[zbigreddogz]

There is no such thing. Yet. Until you open borders crowd gets your way.

So what? We are debating the way things 'should' be, not the way things 'are'.

You are the one arguing something that doesn't exist. Illegals invaders do exist. But, you don't care.

in·va·sion (n-vzhn) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "invasion" [P] n.

1. The act of invading, especially the entrance of an armed force into a territory to conquer. 2. A large-scale onset of something injurious or harmful, such as a disease. 3. An intrusion or encroachment.

They are not armed forces. They are not intending to conqur. It is not, on a large scale, harmful.

This is typical hyperbole on the anti-immigrant, anti-free market, so-called 'right'. They can't win using normal terms, so they do this crap.

What is your reading comprehension level? About fourth grade?

I AM a blue collar worker. Or couldn't you understand that?

So you are thus incapable of demeaing blue collar workers? No, actually, you can still do that, regardless. Ever heard of the concept of self-lothing?

You could be an outhouse cleaner for all I care, I know demeaning language when I see it.

Of course, you probably don't really hate yourself, it's more likely that you are simply being an economic protectionist, protecting your piece of the pie that you 'deserve', and not allowing free trade to threaten your job. That's fine, but at least be honest about it. You don't want increased legal immigration because it threatens your job.

You are the socialist, however, that wants to forgive millions of people their crimes and allow them access to our wealth.

Socialism has nothing to do with how crimes are punished. That's a completely separate issue.

That said, we aren't discussing what to do with immigrants that are already here, that's a totally separate issue from guest workers, which need not be immigrants that have already come here illegally. If we are throwing around insults, anybody who graduated from the 4th grade would understand that.

And you say 'Access our wealth' like there is only a set amount of wealth to go around. That's a fundementally flawed assumption, although it's the assumption virtually all socialist make.

Immigrants who come and work cheaply create greater efficiency, which leads to greater output, which leads to greater wealth, etc.

Don't believe me, believe Alan Greenspan who said this repeatedly.

Oh, by the way. Part the Constitution of the United States relates to protecting its citizens from foreign invasion. Is that just more outdated protectionism?

Ever read 1984? They redefine words to mean what they want them to mean in that book too.

Illegal immigration is a problem. It is not an invasion. A real invasion looks like this:

Not like this:

If you don't understand the difference, I don't think I can help you.

[KevinDavis]

Beware of the Stonecutters.......