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Where did you ever get these 4000 fps and 2000 fps numbers. Completely bogus. Climb rates are completely driven by weight, temp, altitude, speed tradeoff (deltas) and other factors. There are conditions under which a 747 could be made to climb at a rate of 20,000 or 25,000 feet per minute for a few seconds.

Where did I get them? Boeing's web site on the 747... they are hard to find but if you persevere you can find the specs. They aren't bogus. I know about the "trade offs"... and that the figures I used are averages for altitude ranges. I could have posted the Boeing charts of altitudes and climb rates that show far more detail than any body needs, but the averages were just as useful in a discussion of this type.

By the way, you seem to have a problem with the rates.. those are feet per minute... not feet per second.

I would be interested in those "conditions under which a 747 could be made to climb at a rat of 20,000 or 25,000 feet per minute for a few seconds." Can you describe them?

I'm sorry, but I'm simply not going to be beggared into an ongoing discussion where you do not understand the fundamental foundations of the issues involved.

I'm not attacking you personally, but you are making a classic mistake of logic. You are accepting a conclusion, looking for often disconnected facts to support that conclusion, and ignoring any fact that goes against. or even worse, disproves your conclusion.

In addition, I'm sorry, but you do not have the base of engineering or aviation knowledge to draw conclusions in this matter. I'll give you an example.

You quote rate of climb figures. Those are normal cruise-climb ROC numbers. They in no way describe a max effort climb, or take into account what the A/C could achieve in an atypical situation. They are simply target figures often used in performance and range/speed/distance projections, not engineering limits by any means.

Finally, the quotes from some so-called (but always unnamed "Washington Insider" or "some Boeing engineer." In 62 years of life, I have found such quotes to be made up or so greatly exaggerated as to be a distortion of facts by a quantum order of merit about 99.99% of the time. It's all very much like the "I know a guy who knows a guy whose brother-in-law worked for a guy who knew a woman who had the plans for the 100mpg carberatur, but GM, Ford and Exxon all threatened her with death if she ever revealed them" sort of BS.

Finally, I think it's very good that you are interested in this issue. We need informed, solid reasoning on issues such as this. Take some time. Take a few aeronautical engineering courses at a local college or university. Take a private pilot's ground course through a local flight school or FBO.

If, after you have the solid engineering and aviation knowledge about htis issue, then make money writing a book on this issue. The current ones are so devoid of facts or engineering/aviation basis that they are worthless, and cruelly laughed pay by pilots.

A physician friend who flies his own Citation II SP was interested in this issue, so he tried to read a few books claiming that the A/C was shot down. He never got past chapter three in anyone of them because they had all made such basis engineerng and fact errors. A simply one would be one prominent authors claim that on the night in question W-105 was "active" and thereby closed to aircraft. He didn't know, or want to know that Warning Areas such as W-105 never close an area to airdraft. Prohibited and Restricted airspace does that, but Warning areas are simply areas where increased vigilence of other traffic is suggested.

Dr. Phillips comment about the field of "experts" surrounding this reminded him of those "Philipine Pshchic Surgeons" who make a few hand covescover and depressing a patient's abdomen, puch into the soft large intestine area and claim to remove cangerous growths without ever leaving a scar. Of course, it's slight of hand magic that fools most onlookers, but every physician knows is BS from the moment they see the tape.

Be smart. Get an education in what really matters in an engineering evaluation aft nastire. Then write a great-selling book debunking the other phony books that make their con men authors millions. all on the back of the dead passengers who are the true tragic figures here.

This my last post on this issue, because trying to teach some logic to the "True Believers" is like tryimg to trash a pig to dance on two legs. All it goes in waste your time, frustrate you, an-danger the pig..

Sincerely, Good luck