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To: MindBender26
I don't know what conspiracy posters you are listening to, but in a climb instituted by CG shift aft, it is not a rotational force caused by elevators, but rather a weight shift. Does not stall until has run out of the forward momentum potential delta.

I am not a pilot... but I have quite a bit of physics knowledge from college... and other pilots and physicists have weighed in on this. You are very late to the discussion. A wing will stall when the airflow over it no longer supports lift. If the wing no longer is presenting the correct angle of attack, it is very likely it will stall. In addition, the Aircraft itself suddenly was no longer aerodynamically stable... the fuselage was now completely open... a 20 foot circular scoop instead of streamlined nose.

I once calculated the thrust of the 747 engines required merely to overcome drag and keep the aircraft flying level at the same speed. Those calculations are here in the archives on FreeRepublic. Boeing released information that when the electronic control signal from the flight deck was lost, the engines would revert to "idle" and produce little thrust.

Boeing's own specifications for the 747 state that at 10,000 Feet, the maximum climb rate is 2000 feet per minute to 16,000 ft. Below 10,000, a fully loaded 747 can climb at 4000 feet per MINUTE with the engines at 100% (per Boeing). Yet, the CIA Zoom climb has the aircraft climbing more than 3000 feet from 13,800 ft. in 16 seconds!... That's an astonishing 200 feet per SECOND... but that is an average for the entire 16 seconds. Consider that in the last second, the wreckage would only climb 16 feet before topping out. How fast did it climb in the first second?

Which brings up the question: How many G's was the plane subjected to in that first second of the "Zoom climb" and how did it keep its wings with the main box girder that connect them to the fuselage (the Center Wing Tank) supposedly shattered??? If we just assume it moved the average 200 ft/sec, that's 6.25 Gs!!!! In actual fact, to get that average, it had to move quite a few more feet in that first second than 200... maybe as many as a thousand (I'm not going to take the time to calculate it)... which would be ~31Gs (Est.) of (averaged) acceleration in that first second. Where did that much force come from to change the vector from forward momentum into upward momentum?! Certainly the wing was not designed to withstand 31Gs of acceleration... and especially not with a broken box girder. If the vector of motion was changed so rapidly, the wings would have folded and any climb aborted. Again, the physics say that the zoom climb scenario is impossible.

Let's return once again to the BALLISTIC FALL of the wreckage of TWA-800. Mindbender, if there had been ANY zoom climb at all, it requires time. The laws of physics state that it takes an equal amount of time for the fall as for the climb... simply to reach the altitude where the zoom climb began. In this instance, the CIA claimed the wrecked fuselage, minus the nose, zoom climbed 3,200 additional feet from the 13,800 ft. altitude of the initiating event and loss of the nose in approximately 16 seconds... Calculating the available forward momentum of the aircraft, minus the mass of the nose and its momentum, I found that if 100% of that forward vectored momentum were instantly turned into upwardly vectored momentum that 3700 ft was the maximum theoretical gain in altitude... and that's ignoring drag! That's 100% of any forward, North Easterly momentum AND motion. From that theoretical altitude gain, the wreckage would have to drop straight down to splashdown in the ocean because there is no forward momentum left.

Ballistic Fall. The captain of the NOAA research ship Rude entered Flight 800's last secondary radar position, speed, heading and gross weight into his computer and it predicted the landing point by calculating a ballistic fall. He went to that spot and immediately found the main wreckage including the fuselage, wings and engines.

Since it didn't... and in fact splashed in exactly where calculations show an uncontrolled ballistic fall from 13,800 feet, with the starting velocity of TWA-800, would splash in... there was no "Zoom climb."

Looking at the time line... We know exactly to the second when the "initiating event" took place: 20:31:12. We know the times of the primary radar returns after the secondary radar transponder stopped responding. The Islip Radar sweep was 4.65 seconds. So every 4.65 seconds we have a position (distance and vector), but not an altitude. However, if we plot the distances on a ballistic arc of fall, the distances are completely consistent with that ballistic arc. But more importantly, the last radar return of the fuselage occurred on the sweep that was made 36.94 seconds after the initiating events. It had vanished by the next return. Somewhere in the next 4.65 seconds, TWA-800's fuselage splashed down into the Atlantic. Again completely consistent with a ballistic fall. Ergo, no time for an additional ~32 seconds of Zoom climb and fall back to 13,800 feet. Had the CIA's scenario of a Zoom Climb occurred, the wreckage would have been on at least 6 more radar returns before splashdown... it wasn't.

The NTSB's cartoon, recognizing the impossibilities of the CIA's cartoon version, halved the altitude gain and the time ... now adding 16 seconds instead of 32... but still using the same rate of climb... However, it still is inconsistent with the facts... it would have at least been on the next two primary radar returns and possibly the next after that... but it wasn't. The radar horizon for the Islip Radar station at that distance is under 35 feet. Again... no time for a zoom climb to have occurred.

Claim about "no 747 pilot" is simply bogus.

Find and cite one who says that the zoom climb is what happened.

108 posted on 08/22/2006 10:43:21 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!")
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To: Swordmaker
I'm sorry, but your answer is so full of technical errors to be completely meaningless.

For a few early examples, you are completely ignoring the vector and angle of attack deltas regarding the stall. Your definition is correct, but your conclusion ignores the fact that the pitch rotation was not instant, thereby totally invalidating it.

You do not understand the concept of "flight idle" for fanjet engines, and are ignoring it. Tjat's like saying 2+2 is 7 (if there is a 3 you don't tell anyone about.)

You are amazed by a 200 feet a minute climb, but ignore the fact that 200 fps is approximately 144 mph and the rotational conversion of horizontal speed to vertical speed with the resulting negative speed delta is completely on target.

Where did you ever get these 4000 fps and 2000 fps numbers. Completely bogus. Climb rates are completely driven by weight, temp, altitude, speed tradeoff (deltas) and other factors. There are conditions under which a 747 could be made to climb at a rate of 20,000 or 25,000 feet per minute for a few seconds.

You are combining the ISP radar performance for primary and secondary targets and ignoring the Doppler clutter erasure. Again, I'm sorry, but as you are neither pilot or ATC controller, you may not understand why your figures are meaningless, but they are.

Finally the BS that some ship's captain had a magic computer program that gave him flight patterns for a 747. Even if he had such a program, multiple flight parabolas will give the same impact point.

Easy to understand example?

Take a garden hose and turn it on. Raise the arc and watch point of impact move away, up to about 47 degrees off horizon, where it begins to move back towards you. At 90 degrees, you get all wet... just like the theories here posted here by the amateur conspiracy engineers.

Take a few flying lessons. All will become very clear.

109 posted on 08/23/2006 12:05:57 AM PDT by MindBender26 (Having my own CAR-15 in RVN meant never having to say I was sorry....)
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