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To: SirLinksalot

You'd think with all this help, ID would be able to accomplish some actual science, or at least describe the kind of research they would do if they got the chance.

You'd think someone in the ID movement would put forth a testable hypothesis about when and where ID intervention has taken place and what specifically was done. Which species, for example were engineered and which are just variations on a "kind."

You'd think they would propose some physical mechanism that limits the variations on kinds. A mechanism that could be tested.


8 posted on 08/03/2006 12:29:01 PM PDT by js1138 (Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!")
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To: js1138

The issue of Testability has been brought up by many people. Even conservative columnist George Will brought it up in his critique of Intelligent Design.

Here is William Dembski's response :




Your deeper concern is that intelligent design is not science because it is not testable. If ID were not testable, you would have a point. But the fact is that ID is eminently testable, a fact that is easy to see.

To test ID, it is enough to show how systems that ID claims lie beyond the reach of Darwinian and other evolutionary mechanisms are in fact attainable via such mechanisms. For instance, ID proponents have offered arguments for why non-teleological evolutionary mechanisms should be unable to produce systems like the bacterial flagellum (see chapter 5 of my book No Free Lunch [Rowman & Littlefield, 2002] and Michael Behe’s essay in my co-edited collection titled Debating Design [Cambridge, 2004]). Moreover, critics of ID have tacitly assumed this burden of proof — see Ken Miller’s book Finding Darwin’s God (Harper, 1999) or Ian Musgrave’s failed attempt to provide a plausible evolutionary story for the bacterial flagellum in Why Intelligent Design Fails (Rutgers, 2004).

Intelligent design and evolutionary theory are either both testable or both untestable. Parity of reasoning requires that the testability of one entails the testability of the other. Evolutionary theory claims that certain material mechanisms are able to propel the evolutionary process, gradually transforming organisms with one set of characteristics into another (for instance, transforming bacteria without a flagellum into bacteria with one). Intelligent design, by contrast, claims that intelligence needs to supplement material mechanisms if they are to bring about organisms with certain complex features. Accordingly, testing the adequacy or inadequacy of evolutionary mechanisms constitutes a joint test of both evolutionary theory and intelligent design.

Unhappy with thus allowing ID on the playing field of science, evolutionary theorist now typically try the following gambit: Intelligent design, they say, constitutes an argument from ignorance or god-of-the-gaps, in which gaps in the evolutionary story are plugged by invoking intelligence. But if intelligent design by definition constitutes such a god-of-the-gaps, then evolutionary theory in turn becomes untestable, for in that case no failures in evolutionary explanation or positive evidence for ID could ever overturn evolutionary theory.

I cited earlier Darwin’s well-known statement, “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” Immediately after this statement Darwin added, “But I can find out no such case.” Darwin so much as admits here that his theory is immune to disconfirmation. Indeed, how could any contravening evidence ever be found if the burden of proof on the evolution critic is to rule out all conceivable evolutionary pathways — pathways that are left completely unspecified.

In consequence, Darwin’s own criterion for defeating his theory is impossible to meet and effectively shields his theory from disconfirmation. Unless ID is admitted onto the scientific playing field, mechanistic theories of evolution win the day in the absence of evidence, making them a priori, untestable principles rather than inferences from scientific evidence.

Bottom line: For a claim to ascertainably true it must be possible for it to be ascertainably false. The fate of ID and evolutionary theory, whether as science or non-science, are thus inextricably bound. No surprise therefore that Darwin’s Origin of Species requires ID as a foil throughout.


17 posted on 08/03/2006 12:33:01 PM PDT by SirLinksalot
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To: js1138
You'd think someone in the ID movement would put forth a testable hypothesis about when and where ID intervention has taken place

Maybe, just maybe, ID suffers from the same quandry that faces Darwinism. Are you aware of a testable hypothesis put forth by Darwinism that can lend proof to the concept of speciation from a single-cell through a slow process of mutation and natural selection? If Darwinists could have proven their theory, this debate would have been long over. 150 years of speculation, and the debate still rages.

24 posted on 08/03/2006 12:37:52 PM PDT by My2Cents (A pirate's life for me.)
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To: js1138

"A mechanism that could be tested."

Somegoddidit. Prove 'em wrong. Pretty funny, huh? I'm not really sure what experiment you'd use to test that, given the supernatural nature of deities.


27 posted on 08/03/2006 12:38:34 PM PDT by MineralMan (non-evangelical atheist)
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To: js1138
You'd think with all this help, ID would be able to accomplish some actual science, or at least describe the kind of research they would do if they got the chance.

Well, ID is a young theory. It needs affirmative action.

136 posted on 08/03/2006 2:32:40 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: js1138
You'd think they would propose some physical mechanism that limits the variations on kinds. A mechanism that could be tested.

How about the force of gravity for starters. It is the nature of intelligent design to operate within limits. It is the nature of evolutionism to propose notions without bounds, especially when organized matter just "happens."

193 posted on 08/03/2006 5:55:02 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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