Posted on 07/03/2006 7:10:02 PM PDT by GVnana
Correction: It wasn't a prayer, it was an expression of hope.
You hoped I did not have famous last words to the effect that I was ignorant enough to be unable to know my own limitations.
Your comment was a mean-spirited backhanded slap.
I don't allow or disallow anything here. I'm a guest on this forum, as are you. I don't know a thing about you getting prayers from people for riding a motorcycle.
Maybe you are the "Leader of the Pack" there, too?
My pits are not allowed to show any aggression, even a grunt. They are not the determiner of turf. That is the owner's(me) role as the leader of the pack.
And you never worry that your dogs will one day discern that you are not a dog?
In turn, I do not allow other dogs to be aggressive near my dogs. Any time a foreign dog growls for turf, I step to the challenge as the pack leader.
You must cut quite a figure in your neighborhood.
Despite all of the dialog about how to be a responsible pet owner, you should not allow your dog to roam free. There are way too many things you cannot control that can injure or kill your dog.
Hmmm. Maybe like the time my neighbor did something human --took a shower-- and didn't know her dogs had jumped their fence?
I really feel deeply for your pet. However, there ARE many things that can hurt or kill your dogs other than dogs. I have witnessed two dogs getting instantly killed by cars not going that fast right behind my backyard, and almost every day on the way to work I see the remains of someone's beloved pet on the side of the road. These are things no "devil dog" has anything to do with.
Not to mention all of the diseases out there, like distemper, rabies, canine herpesvirus, etc. all of which can be transmitted through any breed of dog. And then, of course, there are your sick people who would jump at the chance to torture a stray dog because they think no one must care about it, and children who "experiment" and do horrible things to "that dog that's always running around here".
And spaniels are prone to some really ugly cataracts, which can be caused by too much unprotected sun exposure. An easy fix, I know, but a costly one, and in the meantime you are stuck with a dog that can barely, if at all, see.
Then there are the smallest pests, the fleas, ticks, mosquitos, and bees, which each carry their own risks.
"And you never worry that your dogs will one day discern that you are not a dog?"
Why do you think dogs run up to you, tail wagging, ears back, wanting to lick your face? They DO seem to think of us as other dogs, and if you aren't the leader, then you get nasty behaviors like couch/bed/toy guarding, ignored commands, and basically every other out of control dog I have ever seen an owner think is " kind of trained". Dogs will occasionally challenge the pack to move up and this is natural. They do it in the wild, and the leader either puts them in their place or gives up the throne.
It may not be that important for someone with a yorkie, but with any dog that's more than 30 pounds, this has to be the goal. I am so sick and tired of people having out of control pets and then calling MY dogs dangerous, as my dogs sit patiently at my feet while theirs bark and run around like little monsters.
Your dog sees you as the leader, the hero. If you don't jump in and save the dog from a fight, it will not feel safe, and might question your role in the pack. I would do the same for my dogs, not only for their safety, but to avoid seeing them in the paper as vicious monsters.
Daschunds, according to the CDC, have actually killed more than two people in the last 30 years. They are not big, strong dogs, but in the hands of someone not willing to control them, any dog can be dangerous. 36 breeds are responsible for deaths in the United States, but that number jumps up to 52 when considering the world. And that is just what is reported. I am sure there are dogs killing people every year all over the world that just don't get reported.
Ha! Well I was right about the landlord not knowing they had two. So common... hope something good comes of this.
Solo
Did you ever find the data showing Labs kill just as many as misunterstood Pit Bulls?
Thanks for showing concern for other people's dogs. It must be conflicting to be an activist for a breed developed and selected for killing dogs, yet professing to be a dog lover.
Now where are all these Lab deaths occurring?
You may have the opportunity to indulge in pack behavior, but I expect my dog to know that she's a dog and I'm the human. Other dogs don't provide dinner, a clean bone to chew, fresh water and a nice dry place to sleep.
If you don't jump in and save the dog from a fight, it will not feel safe, and might question your role in the pack.
I don't see that I have a role in the pack. I've had to break-up a couple of dog fights in my life. It's amazing how fast a screaming, running, stick-wielding human can get dogs to drop whatever they're doing and run away. Is that because I'm now the "top dog" or is it simply that I'm a bigger problem than anything else going on at that moment? They're going to catch hell because I, the human, don't like what they're up to.
With my dog's incident, there wasn't any barking or other warning behavior, or challenge. She got pounced-on and ripped to shreds.
Wow, you tend to be proving my points without me having to do anything.
If you had actually bothered to read my post, you would have found that I never said Labs kill as many as "pit bull type". I said that all the retriever type dogs get their own breed spot when the CDC did their counts, but if you lump them all together as retrievers, of course they're going to look more dangerous.
If there's labs, goldens, and chespeake bay retrievers on the list of dogs that have killed a person it only stands to reason that those breeds are responsible for at least one death each. But they didn't get lumped together. That's only three breeds. But when you look at the "pit bull type", this is a combination of at least seven different breeds, but more likely around twelve to fifteen.
Break the number of deaths down by the actual breed of "bully" and you find that NONE of them are any more dangerous than any other breed of dog; in fact, to the contrary. They blend in with the rest that way, but then we wouldn't have a monster to blame for our stupidity, would we? We would have to keep track of our children and pets and be responsible, the exact thing we want "dem pittbull owners" to do.
Let's do the math. Of the last 40 years, according to the CDC, there have been about 70 "pit bull type" deaths. The term "pit bull type" refers to the AmStaff, the Staffy Bull, the American Pit Bull Terrier, the Bull Terrier, the Miniature Bull Terrier, the American Bulldog, the bandog, or any mix of these dogs, or any dog that looks decidedly like these dogs or mixes.
Break that down to breed, and let's say that each of the breeds gets an equal number of deaths. That means for every breed, there are ten deaths every forty years. That equates to one every four years for each breed. That is eerily the same amount as any normal large, strong breed, except for german shepherds and rottweilers. They have more. But who's to say they aren't mixes as well, as I know for a fact that no one bothered to check these dogs to make sure they were registered purebreds. Maybe we should just all have ankle biters instead.
If I have to repeat myself one more time it will only prove that you have some kind of attention disorder.
Do you really think that your dog doesn't consider you in the pack? It's nothing new. It is what many top-notch trainers and behaviorists know as truth, not theory.
"You may have the opportunity to indulge in pack behavior, but I expect my dog to know that she's a dog and I'm the human. Other dogs don't provide dinner, a clean bone to chew, fresh water and a nice dry place to sleep."
Wow. Yes, the pack leader is responsible for feeding, bedding, and maintaining the safety of the pack. No, they don't provide a turndown service, but they are responsible for the welfare of their "family". That is EXACTLY why dogs look at us as such. They may not necessarily think we are dogs like them, but we are still in the pack, and we should still be the leader.
"I don't see that I have a role in the pack."
And this is exactly why your dog is roaming the streets getting into trouble and getting hurt. You seem to not see a lot. If your dog was so well trained, why didn't it listen when told to go home? Its a DOG! And you are an equal in your dog's eyes. The same reason the "vicious pit bulls" jumped the fence and attacked another dog on their territory. They're dogs too. And what if they had just been roaming the streets like your dog? Would you feel any differently? What if your dog had been attacked by two labs? Would you be posting here? Why is it ok for YOUR dog to roam the streets, but not for others?
My mother's female labrador jumped out of a car window once to run inside my brother's friend's house to attack their brittany spaniel sitting innocently on the couch. She's a dog also. No warning, no growling, she was just gone in a split second. I wouldn't call her vicious. She just didn't like other dogs sometimes. My mother was always babying her and spoiling her. She barely knew sit or shake commands, and that was it. She would try and mount people in the family, too. If she thought we were not like her, why would she try to dominate us as if we were pack members? No one bothered to set boundaries that meant something to HER. That dog was a great example of how you don't raise a dog.
And yes, it only makes sense that if you are coming at a dog with a stick and screaming your head off, the dog will get scared, regardless of how he views you. That doesn't mean you are being seen as a parent figure instead of a dog pack leader. That means you're carrying a stick and screaming, two things dogs don't understand and will be freaked out by.
You have every right to disagree with my views. That is what makes this country great. But just so you know, my dogs have never been in trouble like that. Never any close calls with cars, fights with other dogs, guarding, nothing. Everyone has their own way of "training" their dogs to be good citizens, but some are better at it. It couldn't hurt for you to read up on dog training and change your situation. It might end up saving your dog's life, and you never know. Cocker spaniels are in the top two for bites, not because the breed itself is bad, but for whatever reason, they're in that spot. You could also end up saving a child from a pretty nasty bite as well.
I do not mistakenly think my dogs look at me as another dog. Neither do I mistakenly give my dogs human traits.
You do not need to be a six foot 300 lb full back to take the leadership position with a dog. I suggest you watch some dog training videos, you might benefit mostly from wathing the Dog Whisperer.
I am not commenting on the neighbor's responsibility because she is not on here telling us how her dogs defended their territory. If indeed she had unchained dogs, even in a fenced in yard, running unattended, she was irresponsible. But, you were irresponsible as well.
Don't condemn an entire breed for your error.
What is it about Pit bulls not being like other dogs that you don't agree with?
Probably not. I had a lab in my front yard today, and told him to "shoo" and he left. He's the same lab that my cocker chases out of my driveway on a regular basis. He doesn't try to turn her into hamburger.
So that lab didn't and those pit bulls did. Those are your limited experiences with two different breeds. And I would wager if a lab did decide to maul your dog, it will not end up here. This space seems to be reserved for pit bulls, that, in your OPINION, which you have right to, are somehow different from other breeds of dog. How much research have you done on pit bulls and labs? Are you basing your opinions on your limited personal experience and the media? If so, you just might be misinformed.
I am no expert. However, every day after work, for hours until I go to sleep, I eat, drink, and breathe dogs. I am constantly writing someone, reading about dogs, talking on the phone about them, rescuing or rehoming them, or buying things for them. Obsessive? Perhaps. It is my chosen field, and I will continue until I die.
The reality is that because I am fully immersed in this, I happen to know a great deal about things of this nature. I don't know everything, and I still have lots to learn, but I am willing to keep an open mind, because like you, I once feared pit bulls. That was years ago, but I have come to really love the breed because of the extensive research I have done over the years. They really are an exceptional breed. They have taught me that you can never really know about certain things until you decide to stop relying on heresay and start looking up the facts.
There are standard poodles that don't swim and retrieve, shepherds that don't herd, labs that are afraid of water, and jack russel terriers that can't stand holes in the ground. Regardless of the breed, there's no guarantee what you will get with a dog. It depends on how they're raised, their parents' temperaments, and a little of it comes down to what they have been bred for. If pit bulls are so mean, why do most people who get them to guard properties have to spend so much money training them? Why do they have to be beaten, starved, chained, or fed poisons to become the monster everyone thinks they naturally are? Don't say it's because of the stories in the paper. Believe me, any time a pit bull even looks at someone cross-eyed it ends up as news. But I don't ever see labs, dalmations, etc. in the paper, and dog bite statistics say they're in the top 5, so there is obviously bias in the media.
Don't you remember when Doberman Pinschers were the dog to fear? I remember almost every early eighties action movie with guard dogs or mean dogs having them with choke collars and cropped ears. They were in the news every week for something and it seemed there was an epidemic. Then it was Rottweilers, and they got it bad too. German Shepherds were getting a lot of heat for a while also.
It is now the pit bull's time in the spotlight because they are the most popular strong breed. However, with all the idiots out there buying these dogs to make into vicious killers, compared to the sheer numbers of the breed, (anywhere from four to six million alive right now) the percentage of them actually killing someone is the same as other breeds compared to their respective populations. No difference whatsoever. But they represent an alarming percentage of the overall dog population right now. In some places they outrank all other dogs as the number one most popular, but in other places the lab is first and they are second.
There is just way too much information out there that to form an opinion without at least doing a little research, to me, seems irrational. I hope your dog makes a full recovery, and I hope this prompts you to learn more about dogs in general. If you feel strongly about anything, the best thing to do is to talk about it after you know something substantial about it. Good luck to you and your pet.
Ahh... Solo ...still disassembling for the great cause. A Pit Bull in every yard!
We all know why her dog got shredded by the Pits and not the Lab...GENETICS. You know it also, as you have to seperate your sweet pit bulls. (BTW, I wouldn't mention that on the internet as it wouldn't be helpful during a lawsuit).
Develop and select a breed to kill other dogs for a hundred years and that's what they do. That's why the breed and the owners are under the microscope. Your hours of dedicated activism alone is proof of a problem.
BTW... you still haven't backed up your claim that labs have killed the same amount as Pit Bulls. You also irresponsibly tried to distribute the deaths at the expense of the non fighting breeds. Not very nice.
One more thing...The GSD and Doberman fanciers got together and fixed their breeding issue. UKC is issueing papers to these freaks:
http://muglestonspitbullfarm.com/males.html
The Pit Bull community is still in the denial phase. I don't think there is much time left to change course.
Let's disect this. The pitbulls jumped a fence to attack another dog. That could have just as easily been a chile. The pitbulls are at fault.
Yes, I am saying someone should be able to have their dog out in the street without fear of that dog being mauled by two pitbulls. We will let those on FR decide if that is an insane position.
As for the anti-freeze, it is a very effect way to rid unwanted dogs from a neighborhood. You may not like that fact but it is a fact nonetheless. It is a tried and true method that has been used almost as long as anti-freeze has been in existance.
You set out the bowl where the dog comes on your property. The dog laps it up and in three to five days it is dead of liver failure. It is a tough approach to a dog problem, I agree with you.
No that's your limited viewpoint of my experiences. Get real.
NO respectable pit bull person has anything nice to say about Mugglestons. They are one of the ones the group I am with tries to get people away from.
My YEARS of dedication is proof that there is a need for ignorant people to be educated, whether they intend to learn or not.
"BTW... you still haven't backed up your claim that labs have killed the same amount as Pit Bulls. You also irresponsibly tried to distribute the deaths at the expense of the non fighting breeds. Not very nice. "
Are you on drugs?! I have told you three different times that is NOT what I said. You are perhaps the most stubborn, ignorant person here because you will only see what you want. I will not repeat myself again, as this is now very ridiculous. You must have some good grass to completely skip entire paragraphs about something you asked about. All of the breeds I mentioned have been lumped in one category. Write the CDC yourself if you don't believe me, but stop calling me a liar. You are delusional.
The group I am with is making great strides to educate people and help not only the entire breed, but people as well. We are exposing back yard breeders and dog fighters, we are educating communities and children on safe methods of dealing with strays, we hold discount spay and neuter clinics, we do marches to raise awareness of current pet problems, we train service and therapy dogs, we foster unwanted dogs, we rescue dogs from abusive and cruel situations, and we are working with a worldwide network with these same goals.
We work in conjunction with several Veterinary organizations, animal welfare, government organizations, NOT PETA, and we are overturning BSL in cities left and right. Eventually, the dog of choice for thugs and idiots will be another breed, and our dogs will go back in the mix, along with doberman pinschers and gsd. (Unfortunate for the next monster breed, but until PEOPLE are controlled, there will always be a bad dog.)
These things don't happen overnight, though. Give us time. Five years ago no one would come up to the owner of a pit bull and say "it's the owners, not the dogs", but we get it all the time now. People are slowly beginning to see the idiocy of it all.
And for God's sake, the last thing we want is for everyone to have a pit bull. Not everyone should have a labrador, either. But it's too late. They ARE the most popular dog in many places. Now it's time to address the problems and correct them instead of trying to eradicate an entire breed which used to be American heroes.
Get real? My dogs are inside with me, not roaming the streets waiting to be victimized. You seem like a nice person, but you really are not looking at this from a rational viewpoint.
Maybe thirty years ago it was acceptable to have all sorts of dogs prancing down the street without a care, but as our society becomes more civilized and educated, we start to realize that things we used to think safe are not. Cigarrettes used to be "the cure for a sore throat" and other such nonsense, before studies proved that wrong, no matter how many leather-faced, croaking old people "knew" otherwise.
What would it hurt to simply go and find out for yourself? Read a good current caretaking or training book, or go ask animal control or a veterinarian. The worst that could happen is that you maintain your opinion that a dog is safe to run free, but you will still be smarter for it.
Yes, the "pit bulls" should have contained themselves behind a fence they couldn't jump.lol
You are very irrational about this subject, even to the extent in the past of calling dogs "evil"
and now you are advocating that dogs be allowed to roam the neighborhood uncontrolled
(you do realize that is what happened in this case, don't you?).
I pinged you to this thread to bring your attention to the Virginia law posted at #263.
From past threads you indicated you were willing to look at other options to deal with the problem of dog attacks.
Where is your analysis of post #263?
On this thread you asked for responses to a proposal you made.
We responded to you and in turn asked you questions....and you disappeared.
Are you going to respond on that thread?
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