Posted on 06/17/2006 10:30:15 AM PDT by JockoManning
Hi Quix, thanks so much for helping by answering. Good job.
I don't know why the Lord allows such as what has happened or should I say what has not happened with Lloyd Day?
I still choose to live by my conscience.
Thanks again, glad you contribute your wisdom and experience here on FR and in realtime life,
jm
none of the above.
You seem to be doing a pretty good job of pontificating yourself. There are many false prophets, false spirits and false experiences. You apparently trust them all.
So sorry to hear of such isolation, what a terrible experience.
I pray the Lord leads you to a support system.
Blessings,
jm
Sorry I interrupted you.
- - - -
Blowing smoke in dark places doesn't increase my positive impression of your level of honesty.
You apparently trust them all.
- - - -
The off-the-wall inaccuracy of that statement doesn't lead me toward trusting your assessments or comments much at all.
Given that you're that wrong about me . . . you are likely quite wrong about other things you seemingly would prefer I believe you about.
Honesty doesn't have anything to do with it, but I'll probably manage to survive your negative assessment. It may take some time.
"You apparently trust them all."
- - -
For the record and all lurkers:
"all" in the above sentence comprises, on average, 2-5% of the potential, plausible, available BETTER Christian prophetic sources in our era.
It turns out that the mind readers on this thread are not overly gifted or accurate as they seem to present themselves as while castigating others for not being 100% accurate.
To all: When I got home from work today, someone had forwarded an email to me put out by Steve Shultz, via THE ELIJAH LIST [ www.elijahlist.com ] refuting the subject of this thread, the Willamette Vally Warning. Excerpted below, it is helpful for those of us attempting to in good faith sort through dreams, visions, and prophecies.
jm
+* +* +* +* +* +* +*
The summary of the two dreams circulating were this: This Messianic Christian (who I consider to be a brother in the Lord), received a dream in which on a given day, an evil parade was held in Portland, Oregon. Then he saw buildings collapse, the dam break, and a tsunami hit, which destroyed most of the Willamette Valley. He concluded that since the parade was evil, and the parade was on the 18th of June this year (though that date was not in the dream), this must be the date of inevitable destruction of most of Portland, and continuing down into the Salem area, etc. He further concluded that since he keeps the entire Torah including the Torah Sabbath, then those reading his word should do two things:
a) Be prepared with a full tank of gas in their car on the 18th of June.
b) Be sure they were attending a Torah-keeping Church.
There was no call to pray against the earthquake or catastrophe. No call to pray for repentance.
But there was an "assumption" or one might say, a "inference" that since he kept Torah, so should everyone else. So again, he says all the readers should: 1) keep Torah and 2) have a full tank of gas in their car on June 18th.
Please note that the dream or revelation never said there would be an earthquake on June 18th (though later he got a word that meant "18" in a second dream). And there was certainly no call IN THE DREAM to begin to keep more laws from the Old Covenant--specifically the entire Torah in order to be safe--though that suggestion was implied in the revelation as it was written.
As a result, we are getting many inquiries about this word. It's circulating all over the Willamette Valley where we are located.
Meanwhile....
I have friends who are ministering every week, under the bridges of Portland, to people caught in this same sin this man saw in the dream. They are putting "feet" to the Gospel, and seeing salvations. Rather than fearing that God is about to wipe out Portland, these friends are doing something about the sins seen there, and those caught in this sin. And they are praying for the safety of this area.
The entire Northwest and the West Coast is admittedly overdue for an over-the-top earthquake, volcanic eruptions, and tsunami's galore. Who would or could deny this?
But What Should You Do?
Will you repent and stand in the gap instead? Will you call out to God for mercy?
Many interpret a dream as a "done deal" when all God is wanting to do, is to say something like this, "Unless you repent, the day is coming....the time when one day, sudden destruction is possible because of this sin in this area. So I'm looking for a man or woman, or a Church, a city, or a people to stand in the gap so that judgment of destruction will not be required." (This is not a Scripture but a paraphrased idea of what God is saying through many prophetic revelations that He is giving to many people in many denominations.)
As the Church, we should not have the mentality that IF every doctrine is 100% accurate, and the car is full of gas, then we are in pretty good shape.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with some preparation in case a disaster ever happens to our area. Preparation is good. Fear is not. And yet, the thought process that suggests that, "Since I hold a better set of doctrines than the next person, I will be safer" --this is simply not Biblical. Sometimes, those with the best Theology and the Holiest of lives, suffer the most persecution and are attacked by the enemy.
Rather, we should always pray and always be "repented- up," and we should understand the Blood of Jesus, be ministering to all those around us, standing in the gap in prayer, and yes, living Holy lives.
A Very Common Set of Missteps in the Prophetic
With what has been circulating in the last week or so, all three of the above guidelines are being accidentally (and innocently I'm sure) forgotten.
These are good guidelines for which prophetic words to listen to and obey:
1) It is not normally only one person who will be given a judgment word by the Lord for a region. Rather, God would normally give it to many prophets and prophetic people from various denominations in the region--and many prophetic people will agree on the word.
2) A Call to pray and repent should always be urged to stop the judgment. Otherwise, we might as well be as Jonah was found to be--simply expecting a wicked city to be destroyed while he remained safe.
3) Biblically, you are not more protected because every law or doctrine is kept, or because you hold a more accurate set of doctrines, or even if you keep a certain day more holy than another person keeps it. Instead, most often (but not always) protection comes for those who live Holy Lives and who trust God, according to Psalm 91.
Psalm 91:1-3
"He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the LORD, 'He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.' Surely He will save you from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence." NIV
Steve Shultz
THE ELIJAH LIST
www.elijahlist.com
Excellent.
And, I think, one of Steve's better articles.
Thanks much.
There comes a time when a false prophet has to be called on it. This guy prophecies the destruction of a million or two people. It doesn't happen, Portland doesn't repent, yet we see posters talking about the difficulty of understanding dreams. Some posters were immediately ready with excuses. This guy's dream was pretty clear, and pretty clearly wrong. Luckily, the local press didn't pick it up and ridicule us all with it.
Thanks for the feedback. It's a dilemma. To be silent is the choice most make when hearing such, for whatever reason. Posting the thread was the decision I made, my heart was in the right place. I didn't want the dream to come to pass. I just wanted people to know. When I had sent an email around with the same message, for one thing, I hoped my aunt, who lives in Vancouver Washington would get out of town for the day.
But the dilemma is that if the dream comes true then it's catastrophic. And If it doesn't then it casts the dreamer and the broadcasters in a bad light. I am still glad it didn't come to pass.
I don't know if we are entering into the Last Days or if the Lord will tarry 500 more years.
But when I hear a warning, it is in a heartfelt way that I want people to know, so they can prepare, so they can be right with God and man. So, I send it around in email. And in this case, I posted it here on FR.
I know that when God looks at my heart, He sees a person who cares about others and doesn't want harm to befall them. He also sees a person who fears Him and is watching and praying while living my daily life.
I don't think Lloyd Day made up the dreams. I think he really had them. I think his publishing them (my impression is that he printed flyers and handed those out) was done out of concern for others. I found the info on the Torah and the Sabbath beyond what I personally do as a believer, but I know there are some who find such very edifying and meaningful.
To me, a false prophet is someone who fabricates something and says God told it to him.
Sigh. Do YOU think that's what Lloyd Day did?
It's awkward. But, on the other hand, what if the dreams had come true? How many folks read this and stopped to examine their heart and to be sure they were in right relationship with their Creator? How many were convicted that they need to remember life as we know it could end with just a moment's notice?
How many folks did get out of town for the day who would have been safe because of the warning? It would have been worth the awkardness for their sake.
It would be totally wrong for anyone to fabricate a dream about the judgment of God. No resulting heart searching or spending Father's Day in the high country would justify such dishonesty and manipulation. It would be despicable.
There were many viewings of this thread. But very few comments. I am concerned about putting Christians who have dreams and visions in a bad light, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I should not have started this thread. To say that all lurkers here reacted badly is making an assumption that can't be proven. There may be some who were nudged to not take this time of peace and prosperity in the USA for granted. There may be some who were nudged to eschew sin and live a godly life. There may be some who were nudged to keep their lamps trimmed and burning knowing there will be a day when He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end and that that Day may be here sooner rather than later.
To the extent that such dreams being published and not coming to pass gives Christians a bad name, it's regrettable. I still don't think silencing all publications of such warnings is the answer.
jm
I strongly agree.
Though I have a lot more certainty about this being the end times than your sentence implied. I think you do, too.
Thanks.
I attended the funeral of de Bro Eucebio sp? De Leon today--Pastor's wife's grandfather, as you know. It was a very precious time. The Presence of God was heavily in the place. His whole reputation was one of loving God and his family and other and trying to insure that all knew Jesus and were ready to go.
It was a very teary service for me even though I know without a doubt that Bro De Leon, Poppo, is in Heaven with The Lord doing better than ever.
It was so precious to sense His Love for Jesus again in his reputation and The Lord's Love for him in that service. It was sooooo precious.
And, of course, I was reminded when I saw him in service a couple of Sundays ago how I'd felt rather strongly that he would not be on this earth much longer. But I had dismissed that sense and certainly had said nothing to him. Thankfully, he knew from many inputs from me how I felt about him. He was one church member who really RECEIVED with love and affection the mug I made him.
So, should I have said something to him? I don't know. Might have been a blessing. What would I have said. I don't know. Something loving, which he'd have graciously received.
Should I have mentioned it to Pastor Brent? Perhaps. He'd have likely dismissed it as he tends to do with such things. He's so burned out over churchianity nonsense and Pentecostal nonsense that he's tended to throw the baby out with the bath on all such things. I don't know that a lot would have been gained by my mentioning it to anyone.
Perhaps some would have spent a few extra minutes with him or some such. But he was always awash in his family's love. It's his family's norm, routine. He, of all people probably felt loved and appreciated about his family because he was so loving.
It's a current dilemna as you know with my 84 year old step'dad's trip to Alaska for 3 weeks. I have felt such a strong press in my spirit to try and get the amendment to the trust done that he wants. And I did. Then he insists that he has to read it many more times and won't sign it until he returns.
I told him that I felt I needed to get it done before his trip but he just gave me a sharp response that he wasn't going to sign it before his trip. I'm puzzled about how to handle it now.
I don't have the certainty I had when I visited you and others in the Midwest last summer that my mother would graduate from this life before I returned from my trip--which she did.
This sense is more like there's a 70-80% chance that dad will return in good health from Alaska but not 100% I don't know how better to put it. I think he is likely to come back safe and sound. But I still have that strong sense that I needed to get the legal papers revised--which I did and then he bowed up about it even though he wants it done, too. Thankfully, the other trustee is more than reasonable and it should not be a problem regardless but it would be so much easier if he took care of it before he left.
And then there's just the conversations that are difficult to have with him though he thinks he's easy to talk to. I'm pretty much not ready at all for him to graduate. But I've done about as much as I can do to prepare for and help prepare him for it. And, he has seemed increasingly diligent to get piddly chore stuff done around the place that he wants done before he graduates.
These sorts of feelings and considerations are pretty common for some of us believers in such situations. I don't have an easy pat answer. I don't think there is an easy pat answer. We all see through the glass darkly. We all are flawed human beings with imperfect walks with God.
God IS VERY ABLE to speak very emphatically and at loud volume in a variety of ways WHEN HE WANTS a message to be unmistakeable and unmistaken. But He OBVIOUSLY PREFERS that still small voice Scripture speaks about. There's something mysterious and important about our training with regard to that still small voice. And pat answers just don't fit.
Anyway--so much for my feelings and cogitations at the moment.
Thanks for your post.
Blessings,
He is what Paul called a Judaizer (sp), which Paul spoke against in pretty harsh terms.
To me, a false prophet is someone who fabricates something and says God told it to him. Sigh. Do YOU think that's what Lloyd Day did?
A false prophet can also be a mouthpiece for an evil spirit. We are told to test all spirits to see if they are of God. To me, the evidence is either that he fabricated it, or got it from an evil spirit. Either way, I don't find any scriptural basis for making excuses for him. We are told to beware of false prophets because many will try to influence the church.
It's awkward. But, on the other hand, what if the dreams had come true?
Personally, I find that 'what if's' are too often used to justify bad doctrines and liberal philosophies. However, if it had happened, he'd now be somewhat famous, and just like others, I'd now be listening to his next words. But some would be also asking several serious questions:
1. Why didn't he go to the local papers? Or to the local radio stations? Another false prophet gave a similar prophecy several years ago, and the local press was more than happy to oblige him.
2. Why would God give such a huge prophecy, forecasting a worse judgment than Katrina, to a minister with a microscopic church, practically unknown in its own city of Salem, Oregon (my home town)?
3. Why would God give this prophecy to a minister in the wrong city; not in Portland which needed to hear and repent in this case?
There was nothing logical about this thing from the beginning. Unbelievers who heard about this are now chuckling in durision. We look even crazier by making excuses for him.
There was nothing logical about this thing from the beginning.
- - - - - - -
I have never found that to be the greatest BIBLICAL justification for much of anything.
God often does many things that seem illogical to the carnal, human, fleshly mind.
I appreciate such earnest efforts on your part . . . evidently to be Biblical and edifyingly exhortive or some such.
So far, your efforts are falling very flat on these eyes. It still appears, sounds like there's more of a penchant for throwing rocks than for hearing God accurately.
There was nothing Biblical about this event either. There's no biblical pattern to support him. From the evidence, you are supporting a false prophet. Why? To a liberal, the only evil is declaring evil to be evil.
I have no problem giving credit to a true prophet. David Wilkerson's 'Vision' comes to mind. He had the ministry to back it up when he presented it. I read it when it was nearly new, and have seen his prophecies fulfilled one after another.
The scriptures are not soft on false prophets, why should we be? Jesus warned us;
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits."
and again He warned us that in the last days; "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many."
Peter warned us;
"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies," (Peter continues in 2 Peter to "cast stones" as you like to call it.)
The Apostle John warned us;
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
Now, show me the passage that tells us to temper those warnings by giving a prophet the benefit of the doubt when he blows it big time.
I like Wilkerson's prophecies, too.
But I know many strong believers who say virtually all the things about Wilkerson that you do about this fellow because Wilkerson did not happen to meet
THEIR
criteria for kosherness.
I'm glad you respect Wilkerson's stuff. I do too.
But I'm increasingly sick of a charry 'holier than thou' attitude toward merely other brothers and siters doing the more or less best they know to hear and obey The Lord.
The fellow at the start of this thread has an earnest, contrite heart before God. I'm grieved you couldn't see that.
You are going by emotions, not the evidence. This guy condemned an entire city, which is 'casting stones' in any book. Aren't you are promoting your own brand of "being holier than thou"? Apparently it's OK for him to condemn others, as long as he does it in a prophecy. Then he gives a prophecy that turns out to be a lie, frightening many. Are these the evidences of earnest and contrite?
I rather much disagree.
Methinks I fail to have the ability to dialogue reasonably enough with you. And, I fail to have the capacity to enable you to see my perspective sufficiently.
Nevertheless, God's best to you and yours.
Blessings.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.