Posted on 06/14/2006 5:58:12 PM PDT by Oshkalaboomboom
Confederate flags flown aboard the international space station — and seemingly signed by a NASA astronaut — showed up last week on the online auction site eBay.
The original eBay listing indicated that the 4-by-6-inch flags were brought aboard the space station by Russian cosmonaut Salizhan Sharipov in 2004, and an accompanying photo showed a sample flag that seemed to bear Sharipov’s signature as well as that of Leroy Chiao, his NASA colleague on the station. Yet another photo showed several of the rebel flags floating in a space station module.
The item was pulled from the auction on Monday by the seller, Alex Panchenko of USSR-Russian Air-Space Collectibles Inc. in Los Angeles — and on Tuesday, Panchenko told MSNBC.com that he removed the items from sale because he had concluded the flag and the authentication documents were forgeries.
However, Robert Pearlman, editor and founder of CollectSpace, said he believes the flags are authentic.
“The picture taken of the flags aboard the station says a lot,” he said. “It would be difficult to fake, given the style and I couldn't see the motivation to do so.” The “onboard-the-ISS” stamp, added Pearlman, is not known to have been counterfeited anywhere."
The disappearance of the flags followed a round of criticism over the weekend from former space scientist Keith Cowing, publisher of NASA Watch, an independent Web log. He cited the Confederate flags as an example of “bad judgment on the ISS.”
“You'd think that someone on the U.S. side of the ISS program would have expressed some concern about flying a symbol on the ISS that many Americans associate with slavery,” Cowing wrote.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
yes. :)
i once , about 10 years ago or more, met one of the "old boys" at the Air & Space Museum. i was THRILLED!
free dixie,sw
A number of years after Downing had settled in Roanoke and a new church had been built, he was able to fulfill his childhood dream of honoring Jackson.
Downing would not forget the man whom he credited for his family's Christian heritage. A 100th-anniversary history booklet published by the church in 1992 states: "An influence in his life was General Thomas 'Stonewall' Jackson who taught a 'Negro Sunday School Class,' among whom were Reverend Downing's parents."
Downing decided to raise funds for a commemorative stained-glass window. The idea of memorializing a Confederate general in a black church raised a few eyebrows. Though ridiculed by some, Downing refused to allow his critics to discourage him.
The window finally was installed on May 10, 1906. This date was significant for two reasons. First, it was on May 10, 1863, that Jackson uttered his immortal dying words: "Let us cross over the river and rest in the shade of the trees." Second, 1906 marked the 50th anniversary of the beginning of Jackson's black Sunday school.
The event made national news, and Downing received letters of commendation from as far away as England. The dedication ceremony was attended by church members and the local Confederate Veterans camp. Many members of the press were on hand for the unveiling, as were a number of prominent Roanoke citizens. The window was Downing's own design.
Excerpt from the Christian Science Monitor, Jan 22, 2004:
To be sure, the sad-eyed, white-whiskered Lee abhorred slavery; Stonewall Jackson tutored black children; and Davis adopted a black son. But today, 30 years after police were called to high schools to quell racial tensions from Wilson, N.C., to Portsmouth, Va., black activists across the South and as far north as Vermont are vying to change the names of schools named after Confederate notables. And the long-simmering acrimony over Confederate symbols like the St. Andrew's cross is moving into the thornier realm of Southern personages - and dividing Southern politics at a time when Northern Democrats are desperate to woo Dixie voters.
And this from Chuck Baldwin of RenewAmerica (Jan 20, 2006):
January is often referred to as "Generals Month" as no less than four famous Confederate Generals claimed January as their birth month: James Longstreet (Jan. 8, 1821), Robert E. Lee (Jan. 19, 1807), Thomas Jonathan Jackson (Jan. 21, 1824), and George Pickett (Jan. 28, 1825). Two of these men, Lee and Jackson, are especially noteworthy.
Without question, Robert E. Lee and "Stonewall" Jackson were two of the greatest military leaders of all time. Even more, the Lee and Jackson tandem is regarded by many military historians as having formed perhaps the greatest battlefield duo in the history of warfare. If Jackson had survived the battle of Chancellorsville, it is very possible that the South would have prevailed at Gettysburg and perhaps would even have won the War Between The States.
In fact, it was Lord Roberts, commander-in-chief of the British armies in the early Twentieth Century, who said, "In my opinion, Stonewall Jackson was one of the greatest natural military geniuses the world ever saw. I will even further than that-as a campaigner in the field, he never had a superior. In some respects, I doubt whether he ever had an equal."
While the strategies and circumstances of the War Of Northern Aggression can (and will) be debated by professionals and laymen alike, one fact is undeniable: Robert E. Lee and Thomas J. Jackson were two of the finest Christian gentlemen this country has ever produced! Both their character and their conduct were beyond reproach.
Unlike his northern counterpart, Ulysses S. Grant, General Lee never sanctioned or condoned slavery. Upon inheriting slaves from his deceased father-in-law, Lee immediately freed them. And according to historians, Jackson enjoyed a familial relationship with those few slaves which were in his home. In addition, unlike Abraham Lincoln and U.S. Grant, neither Lee nor Jackson ever spoke disparagingly of the black race.
As those who are familiar with history know, General Grant and his wife held personal slaves before and during the War Between The States, and even Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation did not free them. They were not freed until the Thirteenth Amendment was passed after the conclusion of the war. Grant's excuse for not freeing his slaves was that "good help is so hard to come by these days."
Of course, Lincoln's views on slavery and the black race are widely known (at least by those familiar with history). In fact, if Lincoln were alive today, he would no doubt be identified as a white supremacist.
For example, in an 1858 debate Lincoln said, "I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people, and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior. I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." Lincoln routinely made such comments.
Contrast the sentiments of Lincoln and Grant to those of Robert E. Lee and Thomas Jackson. For example, it is well established that Jackson regularly conducted a Sunday School class for black children. This was a ministry he took very seriously. As a result, he was dearly loved and appreciated by the children and their parents.
Furthermore, both Jackson and Lee emphatically supported the abolition of slavery. In fact, Lee called slavery "a moral and political evil." He also said "the best men in the South" opposed it and welcomed its demise. Jackson said he wished to see "the shackles struck from every slave."
To think that Lee and Jackson (and the vast majority of Confederate soldiers) would fight and die to preserve an institution they considered evil and abhorrent is the height of absurdity! It is equally repugnant to impugn and denigrate the memory of these remarkable Christian gentlemen!
In fact, after refusing Abraham Lincoln's offer to command the Union Army in 1861, Robert E. Lee wrote to his sister on April 20 of that year to explain his decision. In the letter he wrote, "With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty as an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I therefore have resigned my commission in the army and save in defense of my native state, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed."
Lee's decision to resign his commission with the Union Army must have been the most difficult decision of his life. Remember that Lee's direct ancestors had fought in America's War For Independence. His father, "Light Horse Harry" Henry Lee, was a Revolutionary War hero, Governor of Virginia, and member of Congress. In addition, members of his family were signatories to the Declaration of Independence.
Remember, too, that not only did Robert E. Lee graduate from West Point at the top of his class, he is yet today the only cadet to graduate from that prestigious academy without a single demerit!
However, Lee knew that what Lincoln was about to do was both immoral and unconstitutional. As a man of honor and integrity, the only thing Lee could do was that which his father had done: fight for freedom and independence. And that is exactly what he did.
Instead of allowing a politically correct culture to sully the memory of Robert E. Lee and Thomas J. Jackson, all Americans should hold them in a place of highest honor and respect. Anything less is a disservice to history and a disgrace to the principles of truth and integrity.
You're comparing apples and oranges, and we gave the people of Hiroshima warning that we were going to hit. I take it no one evacuated, but they had that knowledge. Atlanta on the other hand, Sherman chose to sneak up on it so people wouldn't know until it was too late so they couldn't adequately take what they had with them. Also, the U.S Army didn't enter the ruins of Hiroshima with the intent to take away food from victims of the bombing, as opposed to Atlanta.
Wrong again. The chief who went to swear allegiance to King George was named Attacullakulla.
in point of fact, virtually every nation but the USA recognizes the Mohawk Nations passports
That's so cute.
Lee was, at best, mildly opposed to slavery.
...Stonewall Jackson tutored black children...
Let's be fair, his Sunday School class was made up of adults. Both free blacks and slaves, half a dozen or so belonged to Jackson himself.
...and Davis adopted a black son.
Davis had nothing of the sort.
If Jackson had survived the battle of Chancellorsville, it is very possible that the South would have prevailed at Gettysburg and perhaps would even have won the War Between The States.
Doubtful. Prolonged the rebellion, perhaps. But win? No.
Unlike his northern counterpart, Ulysses S. Grant, General Lee never sanctioned or condoned slavery.
On the contrary, as late as January 1865 Lee called the relationship between master and slave "...the best that can exist between the white and black races while intermingled as at present in this country." In 1856 he proclaimed "The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence." So not only did Lee condone slavery, he thought it necessary.
Upon inheriting slaves from his deceased father-in-law, Lee immediately freed them.
He did not. When George Washington Parke Custis died in October 1857 he stated that the slaves were to be freed no later than 5 years after his death. Lee freed them in December 1862, five years and two month later.
And according to historians, Jackson enjoyed a familial relationship with those few slaves which were in his home.
According to his wife, Jackson was a fair but firm master who believed that slaves had their place and should be kept there. Nothing familial about it.
In addition, unlike Abraham Lincoln and U.S. Grant, neither Lee nor Jackson ever spoke disparagingly of the black race.
Assuming that you do not consider both men's expressed belief that slavery was the proper place for blacks in the south 'disparaging'.
They were not freed until the Thirteenth Amendment was passed after the conclusion of the war. Grant's excuse for not freeing his slaves was that "good help is so hard to come by these days."
Complete falsehood. The Dent family slaves were freed in February of 1862, a fact borne out by Missouri records. When Julia Grant visited her husband during the seige of Petersburg she brought a hired white servant, something she would not have done had she still had slaves. In addition, Missouri had amended her state constitution to end slavery in the state in January 1865 so it would have been illegal for Mrs. Grant to own slaves as late as December 1865 when the 13th Amendment kicked in. That quote attributed to Grant is completely bogus, no date or source has ever been provided.
To think that Lee and Jackson (and the vast majority of Confederate soldiers) would fight and die to preserve an institution they considered evil and abhorrent is the height of absurdity! It is equally repugnant to impugn and denigrate the memory of these remarkable Christian gentlemen! In an 1857 letter to his sister concerning his half-brother Wirt Woodson's plans, Jackson wrote: "I would not want him [Wirt] to go into a free state if it can be avoided, for he would probably become an abolitionist; and then in the even of trouble between North and South he would stand on one side and we on the other." So not only is it clear that Jackson believed that trouble would come between North and South over slavery, he knew exactly which side he would fight on. That of slavery.
Of course, Lincoln's views on slavery and the black race are widely known (at least by those familiar with history). In fact, if Lincoln were alive today, he would no doubt be identified as a white supremacist.
As would every single southern leader of the time.
Furthermore, both Jackson and Lee emphatically supported the abolition of slavery. In fact, Lee called slavery "a moral and political evil." He also said "the best men in the South" opposed it and welcomed its demise. Jackson said he wished to see "the shackles struck from every slave."
Absolutely nothing could be further from the truth. In that letter where Lee said slavery was evil he later said, "Although the Abolitionist must know this, & must See that he has neither the right or power of operating except by moral means & suasion, & if he means well to the slave, he must not Create angry feelings in the Master; that although he may not approve the mode which it pleases Providence to accomplish its purposes, the result will nevertheless be the same; that the reasons he gives for interference in what he has no Concern, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbors when we disapprove their Conduct; Still I fear he will persevere in his evil Course." So Lee believed abolition was an 'evil course'. Jackson's wife said that Jackson believed that slavery was sactioned by God, and that man had no cause to question His plans.
Instead of allowing a politically correct culture to sully the memory of Robert E. Lee and Thomas J. Jackson, all Americans should hold them in a place of highest honor and respect.
Far better to make them into something they were not through lies, myths, misquotes, and out-and-out nonsense. </sarcasm>
Bull.
Atlanta on the other hand, Sherman chose to sneak up on it so people wouldn't know until it was too late so they couldn't adequately take what they had with them.
Are you delusional? Sherman's campaign against Atlanta lasted for six weeks before the city fell. Hood was able to evacuate his forces from the city on Sept. 1. Civilians could have left anytime before then. Two days after occupying the city, Sherman ordered all civilians to leave, allowing them to take whatever they could move with them. From his communication to Gen. Hood:
GENERAL: I have deemed it to the interest of the United States that the citizens now residing in Atlanta should remove, those who prefer it to go south, and the rest north. For the latter I can provide food and transportation to points of their election in Tennessee, Kentucky, or farther north. For the former I can provide transportation by cars as far as Rough and Ready, and also wagons; but, that their removal may be made with as little discomfort as possible, it will be necessary for you to help the families from Rough and Ready to the care at Lovejoy's. If you consent, I will undertake to remove all the families in Atlanta who prefer to go south to Rough and Ready, with all their movable effects, viz., clothing, trunks, reasonable furniture, bedding, etc., with their servants, white and black, with the proviso that no force shall be used toward the blacks, one way or the other
After that, Sherman occupied the city for two months before burning it down on November 11.
I don't see where he's challenged us with anything. I'm still waiting for evidence that the confederacy commissioned black men or had them command integrated units. Have you anything to offer on that point?
Or how the South was being taxed for public works projects in the North prior to the civil war.
I've been qestioning that claim the entire thread. I don't suppose you have evidence to support the claim? Of course not.
And don't even start on yankee colonization of the South and West after the War of Northern Aggression.
Oh please do! I need the laugh.
Check Balwin. Gotta love 'em.
You could have strung up the sainted Bobby Lee for the same things, plus one action that Sherman never engaged in - abducting free blacks and taking them south to slavery. Should we have?
> Do you think burning Atlanta was a worthwhile military objective?
Did it reduce the South's ability to wage war? Did it demoralize them?
We did the same thing to Dresden and Hiroshima a few decades later.
In the name of common sense I ask you not to appeal to a just God in such a sacrilegious manner; you who, in the midst of peace and prosperity, have plunged a nation into war, dark and cruel war; who dared and badgered us to battle, insulted our flag, seized our arsenals and forts that were left in the honorable custody of peaceful ordnance sergeants; seized and made "prisoners of war" the very garrisons sent to protect your people against negroes and Indians long before any overt act was committed by the, to you, hated Lincoln Government; tried to force Kentucky and Missouri into rebellion, spite of themselves; falsified the vote of Louisiana, turned loose your privateers to plunder unarmed ships; expelled Union families by the thousands; burned their houses and declared by an act of your Congress the confiscation of all debts due Northern men for goods had and received. Talk thus to the marines, but not to me, who have seen these things, and who will this day make as much sacrifice for the peace and honor of the South as the best born Southerner among you. If we must be enemies, let us be men and fight it out, as we propose to do, and not deal in such hypocritical appeals to God and humanity. God will judge us in due time, and He will pronounce whether it be more humane to fight with a town full of women, and the families of "a brave people" at our back, or to remove them in time to places of safety among their own friends and people.
James M. Calhoun, Mayor
E. E. Rawson and S. C. Wells, representing City Council of Atlanta
Gentlemen:
I have your letter of the 11th, in the nature of a petition to revoke my orders removing all the inhabitants from Atlanta. I have read it carefully, and give full credit to your statements of the distress that will be occasioned, and yet shall not revoke my orders, because they were not designed to meet the humanities of the case, but to prepare for the future struggles in which millions of good people outside of Atlanta have a deep interest. We must have peace, not only at Atlanta, but in all America. To secure this, we must stop the war that now desolates our once happy and favored country. To stop war, we must defeat the rebel armies which are arrayed against the laws and Constitution that all must respect and obey. To defeat those armies, we must prepare the way to reach them in their recesses, provided with the arms and instruments which enable us to accomplish our purpose. Now, I know the vindictive nature of our enemy, that we may have many years of military operations from this quarter; and, therefore, deem it wise and prudent to prepare in time. The use of Atlanta for warlike purposes is inconsistent with its character as a home for families. There will be no manufactures, commerce, or agriculture here, for the maintenance of families, and sooner or later want will compel the inhabitants to go. Why not go now, when all the arrangements are completed for the transfer, instead of waiting till the plunging shot of contending armies will renew the scenes of the past month? Of course, I do not apprehend any such thing at this moment, but you do not suppose this army will be here until the war is over. I cannot discuss this subject with you fairly, because I cannot impart to you what we propose to do, but I assert that our military plans make it necessary for the inhabitants to go away, and I can only renew my offer of services to make their exodus in any direction as easy and comfortable as possible.
You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices today than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war. The United States does and must assert its authority, wherever it once had power; for, if it relaxes one bit to pressure, it is gone, and I believe that such is the national feeling. This feeling assumes various shapes, but always comes back to that of Union. Once admit the Union, once more acknowledge the authority of the national Government, and, instead of devoting your houses and streets and roads to the dread uses of war, I and this army become at once your protectors and supporters, shielding you from danger, let it come from what quarter it may. I know that a few individuals cannot resist a torrent of error and passion, such as swept the South into rebellion, but you can point out, so that we may know those who desire a government, and those who insist on war and its desolation.
You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home, is to stop the war, which can only be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride.
We don't want your negroes, or your horses, or your houses, or your lands, or any thing you have, but we do want and will have a just obedience to the laws of the United States. That we will have, and, if it involves the destruction of your improvements, we cannot help it.
You have heretofore read public sentiment in your newspapers, that live by falsehood and excitement; and the quicker you seek for truth in other quarters, the better. I repeat then that, by the original compact of Government, the United States had certain rights in Georgia, which have never been relinquished and never will be; that the South began war by seizing forts, arsenals, mints, custom-houses, etc., etc., long before Mr. Lincoln was installed, and before the South had one jot or tittle of provocation. I myself have seen in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi, hundreds and thousands of women and children fleeing from your armies and desperadoes, hungry and with bleeding feet. In Memphis, Vicksburg, and Mississippi, we fed thousands upon thousands of the families of rebel soldiers left on our hands, and whom we could not see starve. Now that war comes home to you, you feel very different. You deprecate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent car-loads of soldiers and ammunition, and moulded shells and shot, to carry war into Kentucky and Tennessee, to desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes and under the Government of their inheritance. But these comparisons are idle. I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success.
But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for any thing. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter.
Now you must go, and take with you the old and feeble, feed and nurse them, and build for them, in more quiet places, proper habitations to shield them against the weather until the mad passions of men cool down, and allow the Union and peace once more to settle over your old homes at Atlanta. Yours in haste,
W. T. Sherman, Major-General commanding.
"Sherman is not only a great soldier, but a great man. He is one of the very great men in our country's history. He is an orator with few superiors. As a writer he is among the first. As a general I know of no man I would put above him. Above all - he has a fine character - so frank, so sincere, so outspoken, so genuine. There is not a false line in Sherman's character - nothing to regret." - Ulysses S. Grant, 1879
Then... you appear to tacitly agree that Lincoln by today's standards would be a White Supremacist while countering with what I guess you believe is a solid defense:
As would every single southern leader of the time.
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