Case Aganst Duke Student Unraveling Fast

ABC GMA | Chris Cummo

[MindBender26]

Breaking overnight from Chris Cummo at ABC GMA:

Case against at least one Duke defemdant unraveling fast.

Defendant Seiligman went to bank ATM while rape supposedly happening.

12:02 Time stamped photos show girl arriving. Girl leaves, comes back, call friends on cell phone does other things. 12:19 Seiligman calls cab dispatcher 12:24 Seiligman takes cab to bank miles away, uses ATM card (photos show it is him.) 12:42 after walking back to dorm, Seiligman uses security card to enter dorm. Does not leave.

Also, Seiligman was never interviewed by cops. DA seeking reelection simply took "Dancers" word that he raped her.

[Steve_Seattle]

Excellent post. The facts in this story - if true - would seem to completely exonerate Seligmann, and cast doubt on the woman's entire story. The first dance ended at about 12:05. Then the woman left, was talked in to returning, and briefly danced again. At a minimum, that would have taken 5 - 10 minutes, which takes us to 12:09 - 12:15. In that same time frame, or within five minutes of it, Seligmann makes two phone calls. Seligmann leaves at 12:19, leaving him 3-4 minutes - at most - to participate in a gang rape which the woman says lasted at least 20 minutes. We have, therefore, reasonable doubt. "We have reached a verdict, your honor: not guilty."

[don'tbedenied]

It's even worse for the prosecution than your post indicates. I saw a piece on NBC (yes Perky Katie) that indicated the defense is saying the other guy (not the one with the ATM alibi) was not even at the party!

[Tiberius109]

I don't see whats so hard to believe that the kid simply wasen't interested in seeing some skank dance and left the party . Simple explaination .

[swain_forkbeard]

Yeah, it could be she was totally whacked when she showed up for work. Not a good choice to make in any profession.

Or maybe she got totally whacked at the house. If photos at midnight show her dancing, then leaving, and photos at 12:30 show her totally whacked, falling down, crawling, well... exactly how did she get that way? I want to know.

[Labyrinthos]

You are correct. When I first read that I read an implied "all taxicab companies serving" when they actually qualified it as contacted. It really is unclear whether to read it expansively or narrowly.

According to the "Yahoo! Yellow Pages," there are at least 23 taxicab companies operating out of Durham. There are at least 46 taxicab companies that service the area if you expand the search to include Raleigh, Chapel Hill, Cary, and Hillsbourgh.

[America's Resolve]

he-said she-said defense.

If she reported the rape allegations immediately, as dialling 911 indicates, then there HAS to be DNA evidence. This is backed up by the fact that they took DNA samples from the Duke partygoers, after all, you have to have something to compare against.

This isn't a he-said she-said at all.

[Tiberius109]

Supposed victim - Black
Supposed attackers White , Catholic , rich parents
These kids are toast

[Quilla]

I think the black dancer exploited the situation rather than the other way around.

This is evidenced by an interview with Megan (sp) Kendall on Brit Hume's Special Report last night. She stated that the two boys arrested, who seem to have incredible alibis, are from the most affluent families (with respect to other players) on the team. Someone, who set up a website for the dancer's benefit, had posted names and addresses for every player and Kendall speculated the two were picked from comparisons of these addresses.

[Corin Stormhands]

Stripper shows up, and guy goes to ATM to get cash after midnight. Sounds like she may have disclosed her price for a good time.

His cell phone record also shows he ordered carryout/delivery. Thus ~another~ reason to need cash.

[Steve_Seattle]

According to a post by maggief, the AP has seen the affadavit from the taxi driver who responded to the call.

[America's Resolve]

When he saw the strippers were black, he wasn't interested in watching the show and left. He was a racist.

Now there's a HELLUVAN assumption!!

You don't know anything of the kind.

[Law is not justice but process]

"True though something stinks about it so in time I think we will find out the real truth and the right people will be charged with a crime and convicted for it!"

I am glad someone here still has some degree of faith in the criminal justice system. I am a prosecutor and I assure you it is tough enough to get a jury to convict someone who is dead-to-rights guilty, much less someone who is innocent. There are about 14,000 murders every year in the United States and the conviction rate, as I recall, is somewhere between 60 and 70 percent. The conviction rate is lower for every other crime (you would never feel safe at home again if you knew the conviction rate for burglary, for instance). Since there are often multiple offenders, there are maybe 8,000 to 9,500 people imprisoned each year just for homicide. Every time someone has been proven innocent by after-discovered evidence, it makes the national news. How about the 99.99% of the time the system convicts guilty offenders? When I was in Law School (ironically, at Duke), they always said "it is better that 1,000 guilty men go free than one innocent man is convicted." That may not provide much protection for the rights of crime victims, but the fact is the proportion is more like 10,000 wrongful acquittals to each wrongful conviction.

I do not know what the real story is here. I have seen a lot of speculation on both sides. If what the defense attorneys are saying is true (and recall what the O.J. dream team said to earn their exorbitant fees versus what you really believe happened), I think the District Attorney will never be able to take this case to trial. On the other hand, the D.A. may have a lot more evidence than the defense attorneys (who clearly want to try this case in the media) are willing to admit and publicize. The worst thing about this is the D.A. attempted to try this case in the media as well, commenting on the facts of the case while it was still ostensibly an investigation. He certainly has succeeded in making himself look biased and giving a black eye to all the other prosecutors in the country (just when people were beginning to forget about Marcia Clark, too).

The system will work. If the case ever goes to trial, the jury will hear both the prosecution case and the defense case. We will find out then if the media has accurately reported the facts. I, for one, doubt the media has come very close to the true facts. I learned early in my prosecutorial career that there are at least three sides to every story: what the victim says, what the defendant says, and the truth. I dare say, though, that if the ATM photo bears out, the case on at least one defendant will never get to a jury, and the alleged victim's identifications of any one else will be worthless because she was 100% sure of someone who has a 100% sure alibi he was somewhere else.

I have been in the unenviable position of believing a victim, indicting a case, then having to dismiss because the victim was proven to be or admitted to be a liar. I have even fought to keep a defendant in jail, and later learned the victim was lying. All you can do is dismiss as quickly as possible and feel very ashamed. It is very unpleasant, not just because you were wrong, but because you realize that you violated someone's rights. Even when you do it by the book and know the lying victim was the culprit rather than you, it makes you feel mean. I have also prosecuted victims who later admitted they lied. It is part of the job. I have not heard from the victim in the Duke case and do not know whether she is lying or telling the truth, much less whether she is convincing in telling her story. My instincts would tell me, though, that 10 to 43 young men with clean records and a professed willingness to take a polygraph examination will be viewed by a jury as more believable than a stripper with a criminal record. The D.A. better be ready for that with a lot of corroborating evidence or he is setting himself up for a trial defeat.

Have faith in the system, Halls. I could design a system that convicts a much higher proportion of offenders, but I assure you no one would like it. I could design a system that would never convict an innocent person, but no one would be safe. Our current system balances safety and the rights of the accused. It results in a large number of guilty people escaping punishment, but it almost always protects the Innocent.

The most discouraging thing about this thread is how few FReepers seem to have faith the system will work.

[Tiberius109]

Not a good choice to make in any profession.
Profession / She's not an airline control officer.Do you know anything about strippers and go go girls ? I'm in the entertainment business , believe me I've see the backstage world of dancers. HUGE drug use in the business. MOST of these girls are serious drug users and are stoned to the wall when they dance.Love to know more about this girl .

[investigateworld]

Correct, normally witnesses are excluded from the courtroom, but the DA is allowed to select one investigator to remain and help him.

[Steve_Seattle]

"Align those facts with the alibi by Seligmann and the time stamped photos, than there is no way she could have been raped by Seligmann."

if you add in the evidence from Seligmann's taxi, ATM, and cell phone records, there was - at most - about a four minute time-frame when Seligmann could have participated in a rape/beating which the woman claimed took nearly half an hour. Seligmann was gone by 12:19, and the rape could not have started earlier than about 12:15.

[jiggyboy]

I agree that the timeline does not entirely exculpate the fast-food eater. Whatever happened, it happened between 12:10 and 12:30, and he could have been at the house as late as 12:20,

LOL yeah ok, he made three phone calls in the ten minutes the timeline allows him to be part of a rape?

[windcliff]

Ron Jeremy's a freeper. Signed up in 2001.

[Sicon]

If the case does unravel, and these guys are exonerated, I would not be surprised if there's some "civil unrest" in Durham following the dismissal/acquittal. After all, its not the nature of the evidence, its the seriousness of the charge in these p.c. times.

Think L.A. after the Rodney King verdict, just on a much smaller scale.

[dfwgator]

Yep, somebody has to pay for 400 years of slavery, don'cha know?

[Tiberius109]

I have no faith in the system at all. Jackson and the massivly PC media will hang these kids regardless of evidence. They are the ones trying this case in the media.