GunPorn-1

Mitchell's Mausers ^ | 1-12-06 | Chode

[Chode]

I just brought home a Premium Mitchell's Mauser with all the attachments for $400.00... anybody out there own a Mauser???

[Chode]

THX. oh yeah, it started snowing...
if it was just snow and cold i'd of gone out earlier that's A:OK... but it was all wet and muddy since we've had a warm streak and the rain all night made the fields on my Uncles farm a mess.

i guess the 8mm has about the same terminal ballistics as the .308 so i want to shoot close to 250yds (after i get it on paper at 100yds) as that's where the .308 normally breaks with my HK.

[hiredhand]

Ick...sounds like a real mess! Ummmm....I "think" that 8mm Mauser terminal balistics are a whole bunch over and beyond .308 Win. I could be wrong. I remember reading about it in a reloading manual that I've got here. But I think it's actually got a slight edge over .30-06 with heavier bullets (180gr to 220gr). I'm putting the break-in procedure up now. :-)

[Chode]

kinda an interpolation on my part and maybe a bad one...
my Small Arms of the World(1966) lists the M-14 at 2800fps with a 150gr round, maybe 155gr

the German 98k is listed at 2474fps with a 160gr (i think) then new "S" spitzer round.

and the Yugo M48 is listed as 2600fps!!! but believe me... ALL Yugo ammo is hot Hot HOT.
so i kinda made a loose approximation till i can get good numbers on bullet weights

the older 98a with the round nose round was listed as 2853fps

i know a LOT of ads list .308 ammo as 2840 or 2880fps but i have no idea about 8mm ammo.

i bought three bandoleers with 70clipped rounds each for $45.00 that is supposed to be non-corosive but the head stamp says 7.9|FS|1944|CQT except the C is backwards and the T is upsidedown so i assume it's Cezc/Yugo/Cyrlic or something so i can't be sure.

[hiredhand]

Okey dokey now. :-) First off...understand that there is a LOT of conjecture and debate about the subject of barrel break-in. Some say it isn't necessary, and some say it makes a BIG difference.

My opinion is probably a little different than most. I think it causes an improvement in accuracy, but one which is more cumulative, and not an end-all by itself. The reason I say this is because the first rifle I did this with was a Rem M-700 ADL. For years the gun was a 3" group shooter at 300 yards. I discovered how to adjust the weight, length, and overtravel of the trigger and adjusted it to something a little more conducive to a varmint rifle. I took almost ALL of the overtravel out, and set weight to "approx" 1.5lbs (a little light!), and reduced the disconnect distance to where the sear wouldn't drop from the bolt when the rifle was dropped vertically onto a carpeted floor from 24". Yeah, I know....not exactly "scientific". :-)

In 2002 or so I started hanging out with a bunch of 1000 yard shooters and they showed me some "tricks" for that particular rifle. I ground out the barrel beds in the stock , floated the barrel with a credit card shim under the receiver, and cut about five loops from the ejector plunger spring (to reduce tension on the casehead in the chamber). Also, at the same time I switched to a completely different reload using a 180gr BT bullet. I had been shooting a 165gr HBPT. Accuracy at 300 yards reduced to 2" at this point. Accuracy was also 2" @ 300 yds with the old reload as well.

Because the barrel had been copper fouled, I had to defoul it before using JB Bore Paste and doing the break-in procedure. THAT was a right PAIN in the neck! It took two weeks to get all the copper out of the bore! I "think" I used a copper remover by Hoppes.

Once that was done, I performed the break-in procedure and groups went down to about 3/8" @ 300 yds. Basically, you can put "holes in holes" with that rifle at 300 yards. I gave that rifle to my brother about two years ago when I bought that Mauser in the pic. But that Mauser will do the same group at 500 yards. :-) I've got a target around here somewhere of a 5 shot group @ 525 yds that you can cover with a dime. :-)

I broke in the barrel on the Mauser before ever shooting it at a distance though. Also, back around 2002 or so we bought a Rem M-700 chambered for the .243 Win. We did everything (float barrel, trigger job, cut down ejector springs) EXCEPT the barrel break-in and the rifle would shoot 1" groups at 300 yards (Speer 85gr HPBT). Then we did the break-in with JB one afternoon, and after that the rifle shot .38" five rd groups @ 300 yds. :-) I fired that same rifle back around 2003 and put five rounds on target at 1000 yards within a 16" circle. NOT competitive, but still pretty good shooting! In the end, I found out the spread was such because the seater on my seating die had "drifted". This was with a load shooting 6mm 90gr Berger VLDs (Moly coated).

Also...from what people tell me, this is apt to help a military grade rifle (such as yours!) more than a commercially manufactured rifle because the rifling in military grade rifles tends to be a little rougher.

So anyway....here's how it goes...

BREAK IN PROCEDURE: To properly break in the barrel, first fire 11 rounds, each round followed by a solvent (we LIKE Kroil Oil!) soaked brass bore brush passed from the breech to the muzzle 3 to 5 times.

Dry the bore with a clean patch. Clean the bore further with 20 strokes of a tight fitting patch bearing J-B bore cleaner or another high quality paste type cleaner. Failure to use J-B or another paste type cleaner can triple the break in period. We use a bronze bore brush and wrap a patch which has been impregnated with J-B. You have to just rub it in with your fingers. It WILL make a mess out of the brush and you'll have a hard time getting all the patch fibers out of it! It is easiest to perform this step from the muzzle, but a brass or plastic rod guide ought to be used to assure that the rod never touches the rifling at the muzzle so as not to damage the rifling at the crown.

*NOTE* - The definition of clean after firing (i.e. - from shots 12 to 30...) means to use JB Bore Paste, followed by Kroil Oil until the patch is clean, then run a dry patch down the bore and remove the excess Kroil.

From shots 12 to 30, clean after each 3 shots.

From shots 31 to 50, clean after each 5 shots.

From shots 51 to 100 clean thoroughly with a high quality bore cleaner every 10 shots.

The barrel should thereafter be cleaned every 20 rounds to maintain best accuracy.

I know it sounds like a pain to do this, and it does take an entire afternoon, but I only know what I've told you and it DOES seem to help. :-)

[Chode]

thankxlot for all the help...
do you know what the standard 8mm round weight was for war production??? 160 or 164 comes to mind.
i'll never reload anything again cause i shoot up in minutes what takes hours to reload.
i'm going to stay as close to standard ball as i can find unless i find some "Match" stuff if they even made/make it.

the ground is completely covered now and the trees too... bout an inch. if it freezes tonight i might get a chance to shoot tomorrow but i won't hold my breath.

[Chode]

damn... there were four 100lb doe's accross the 100' deep ravine behind my house just now that looked like so much dead meat through the sights on my Mauser from the porch...!!!
at one time, all four were abreast and one shot would prolly of gone through all four of them.
lucky for them i'm a nice guy... 8^)

[hiredhand]

I'm looking at an older Speer No. 10 reloading manual and it says that the 8x57 Mauser cartridge was originally loaded with a 227gr round nosed bullet prior to 1905.

In 1905, they standard load used a 150gr bullet.

I know that some good deals can be found on MIL surplus 8mm ammo, but it's often loaded with corrosive primers. We've shot a LOT of corrosive ammo, but you have to clean your guns with soapy water to get the corrosive salts off of gun metal.

I understand what you're saying about shooting up ammo too fast that you reload, and I used to feel the SAME way until a buddy of mine went in halfsies with me and we bought a Dillon RL-550B progressive reloader. We had a pool of $500.00 and were able to get the reloader, tool sets for .308/.30-06, and .45 ACP, electronic low powder sensor, the "howto video", strong mounts, and a bullet tray.

Bear in mind that we had a LOT of single stage reloading equipment prior to this, otherwise it could have been more for case prepping equipment such as primer pocket swagers, tumblers, trimmers, etc...

But me and the kids usually reload. In fact, my 12 yr old daughter and I usually do all the reloading. We can load 500 rds of any straight walled pistol cartridge in about 45 minutes, and 500 rds of .308 Win in a little over an hour.

The time I've saved alone was worth it, PLUS it gave me and the kids something to do together!

My daughter has actually reloaded by herself under my supervision. It's funny to see the looks on the guys faces when she pipes up, "Are those MY reloads?" It takes a couple of minutes to convince them that she actually loaded them. But when she explains that SHE prepped and inspected the brass, and sized, trimmed and "miked" it....loaded 5gr of WST behind 185gr SWC bullets and then ran them all through a go/nogo case gauge, they feel a little better. :-)

[hiredhand]

You'd have gotten some SERIOUS bragging rights for killing four with one shot! I know guys back home in VA who have killed two at once, but four would be one heck of a return on one shot! :-)

[Chode]

they were all Bambi's, maybe 100 lbs each at about 50yds... just rooting in the snow, never even knew i was there. they filled up the sighthood though. this is what i ws looking for... The 8mm Mauser, came into existence in 1905 when the 7.92x57J was upgraded with a 154 grain spitzer bullet with a diameter of .323. This was the primary military round for Germany during WWI and WWII. the 154gr is what i'm going to stay with when i can find a good lot and buy 1000 as that will prolly last me a few years... unlike 1000 of .308 8^)

[hiredhand]

Check it out!

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/browse/browse.asp?c=96&s=957

We've been buying 7.62x39R ammo there. It looks like they've got some decent prices on 8mm....non reloadable, but non-corrosive...so they say. :-)

[river rat]

"BIC Pens carried me thru rifle quals for decades...."

You be a Bad Boy!

Semper Fi

[Chode]

coool... and i'm a member too. Duh, i forgot to look there.

[PoorMuttly]

I "think" the 8x57 gets around 100fps more velocity than the '06 when using 200gr. bullets. That's what my manual says. Inherently faster with the heavier ones. Pretty neat. I bet an Ackley Improved chamber ream would increase that too, but I am not sure, interior ballistics being a mystery to me.

I have several of these rifles, and plan to begin handloading for them soon, so may find out. I have been fascinated by the Ackley improvement for a while now, but never did it. Makin' plans, though. The great advantage being not only the 150-200fps increase, but that standard cased loads may still be fired, but expected accuracy is unknown to me. I may ream my air guage '03 some time, for slightly flatter trajectory, closer to the .300WM. I bet an Ackley .35 Whelen would be great.

[Tijeras_Slim]

Hi Muttly!

Slim's latest rifle is a pre-war Model 70 carbine 95%+ in .30-06, and I found a NIB Lyman Alaskan 2.5X circa 1948 to pu on it.

Boy did I get lucky.

[PoorMuttly]

Hi!

Wow, what a beautiful setup that sounds like.

I plan to get EER scopes for one or two of my military rifles, especially if I end up using them for dangerous game...nothing as fast as stripper clips! Some day I'd like to rebarrel a Mauser to .358 Norma, but it is a rare round, so I hope the .35 Whelan AI gets close to it. I would like to use it for boar and bear. Sort of an almost .375 H&H short! I find it interesting that there is an apparent limitation on trajectory performance with most rounds, roughly identical to .30'06, but with heavier bullets. The .338 does not shoot flatter, just delivers a heavier bullet. The .375 270gr. even approximates the '06. There is just no free lunch, without moving to a larger case. I do not like the rebated rim idea, since it really slams into the bolt face. Moly-coated bullets should do a lot for any load too, so I look forward to getting going with handloading again.

I have a Leupold 2x7 on my '06 M70, and it's great, very versatile. What I don't want is to try to find a charging boar or bear through a 3x or more powerful scope. I knew a fellow who had what he called Jaeger see-through mounts under his '06s 6x Burris. They were not absurdly tall like the Weavers, but had neatly cut windows through them. Iron sights rule, IMHO anyway, whenever possible.

I plan to decide on a fixed power scope for all my rifles, for simplicity and consistent range estimation. The problem is the dangerous critters..but I guess that's what a big handgun is supposed to be for. I'd rather use the rifle!!!

[Tijeras_Slim]

I'm a sucker for any gun made 1900 to 1950. I need to win the Lottery!

[PoorMuttly]

I'm that way too, but fall for anything, made any time long ago. I'd go nuts for a matchlock!

[Osage Orange]

Registration is required. In order to bid on items, Auction Arms requires that you first register. It's easy and free!

Auction Arms is a great place....!!

I've purchased a .270, a 7mm mag, and a Mossburg 835 12 gauge off of that site...

Couldn't be happier.

FWIW-

[hiredhand]

I spent some time after posting on this thread the other day reading about the 8x57mm and my (ANCIENT) manual (circa 1985 or so) said that the loads wouldn't exceed SAAMI 38,000 CUP. This was to account for some older Mauser's that were still being used at the time I guess.

So I dug a newer book out of my shelf that I really don't like, and I started comparing muzzle velos and bullet weights.

I discovered what you just said. :-) Performance between .30-06 and 7x57mm is truly an exercise in splitting hairs until you get up to bullet weights of about 200gr.

If not for our military adopting the .30-06 as a standard service round, I believe the 8x57mm could have very well taken it's place. :-)

I did notice that a good many of the heavier bullets (in excess of 150gr) for the 8x57mm had higher ballistic coefficients than the same weight .308" bullets. I didn't go to the Ingalls charts and see what sort of a difference this made out to 1000 yards, but I know from rangetime that a BC of .060 higher can make a BIG difference at 1000 yards. :-)

Ah yes...P.O. Ackley....a veritable legend!

[PoorMuttly]

I like it because you get a little bit of the larger caliber wind-bucking too, (right direction anyway, toward .338!) another a part of which is probably b.c. advantage as well, and it's just a better missile when it's bigger than littler, I notice, and "it" says...they fly better...than the tiny, fast ones. But that's a fine point, better left to we and us expertts.

It's just some of what is so amazing about firearms ballistics in general, and then really doing it...like surfing, rather than reading about surfing. Y' learn things, and it's good for you.

When you then get into how and why a cartridge/firearm is useful for practical field and utility working, it turns into a wildly important and even fun thing to know about, and know how to do. It's no longer arcane and academic tinkering, but a traditional and historic life and death tool of mankind...like fire, and the automobile, the knife, blankets, you name it....only this one can directly and immediately save your ass right away....something people have really liked the idea of, through the ages...lest we forget. This must be major coolness...even I can reckon.

But, I probably digress.

Problem is, I forgot wherefrom.

O.k., from my view, the '06 has the edge in lower weights, say 150 to 180grs. with its proven accuracy and effectiveness, and available loads. I think it is a better all-purpose and longer range stompin' tool, but when I want something to thump a little better, use 200grs. and more, the extra 100 fps may be a good thing. But then again, why really get into something as odd as the 8x57 when the .30'06 is around?

I have asked myself this many times,
and my conclusion is that I am interested in heavier bullets for hunting use, which includes their added wind-bucking. This '06 parent and inherently efficient cartridge, not the lighter bullet 7x57, then combined with the best ex-military rifle for practical heavy duty use is a thoughtful thing to own and use. That it has the 100fps is downright spooky to me, and part of the '06 mystique. I am very grateful that 8mm ammo does exist, especially the 198gr. Norma kind, which is all I willingly and eagerly use. I think the rareness is offset by the heavy bullet/higher velocity advantage, in these reliable factory premium loads. You'll clearly see the similarity to the '06 with them, and they are a well-known great hunting round. Even in a pinch, the downloaded and anemic commercial products are still at least as good as a .303, but even if as low as .30-30 effectiveness...hey, it's still a useful field rifle for woodsman and rancher and farmer n' folks.

It is a great handloading ctg. It does this quirky little weight thing, and is similar to the later derived .30'06, which turned out so practical it wrote the book on field cartridges. The mythical .270, the .25'06, the Whelen, all over every continent, in every sort of impossible situation. It then was the benchmark against which all of the magnums were developed, also great things. All from the 8x57. Worth having, still works, and in the family of our stuff. The rifle is what our modern ones were derived from too, and I personally see only benefits to a well made Mauser 1898. I like the '03 stripper clips though too. Silly me.

The .257 Roberts is always highly spoken of, and used. The 8mm has a good reputation in Africa and Alaska. It started everything and hurt us pretty well in two WORLD wars, and the 7x57 perforated the Rough Riders and their contingent rather well too...all of which I do not find endearing, or something I would want to regularly experience for that reason, but it did all that so well because of inherent virtue...it really worked well. The entire package. We took it.

We're keepin' it.

I met a fellow selling vintage marbles and things at a muddy little back-road swap meet last month or so, who was shocked when I mentioned P.O. Ackley. Said his father was his chief machinist, and he grew up playing in his shop! I was probably more shocked and pleased myself! This after pestering Squantos about Ackley-like esoterica in a burst for a couple of weeks. He was shocked too.

I figure I am supposed to be proud of having resisted buying the man's old Ljutic shotshell reloader. Ok....it still bothers me. Guess I just can't help it.