Posted on 12/13/2005 12:51:54 PM PST by Sam Gamgee
Orthodox Anti-Zionism
Until the Nazi Holocaust, much of the Orthodoxy was antagonistic to the Zionist aspiration of establishing a national home for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel. In large measure this opposition was less to Zionism itself than to the Zionists, for most of the Zionist activists were secularists who rejected the traditional authority of the Rabbis in favour of "foreign" ideologies such as socialism and nationalism.
Zionism constituted a serious threat to the traditional religious power structure. The issue was felt more urgently in Palestine itself, where the "old Yishuv" lived unproductively off the donations of Diaspora Jews, whereas the Zionist settlers were calling for the Jews to be self-supporting and to involve themselves in economically productive manual labour.
As a theological justification for their position, they cite various Rabbinic traditions that forbid the hastening of the Redemption.
(Excerpt) Read more at ucalgary.ca ...
I suppose the Zionist argument would be that many who have moved into Israel came from Russia and Europe, and continue to emigrate from those regions, and cannot gain entry to the United States under national immigration quotas. Also, a zionist likely has an appreciation of history turning its tide against them. They lived as Germans and Austrians for centuries with little trouble and that all changed in the course of 10 years. How can be sure the same fate doesn't await them even within the constitutional protections of the United States?
Jewish opposition to Zionism comes primarily from fringe orthodox groups (like Neturei Karta). Most liberal Jews support the state of Israel but naively believe that Arabs and Jews can peacefully coexist in the region if only land concessions to the Palestinians are made.
Yes, that's where most oppisition comes from. They are extremly liberal and throw their religon around like a badge, similar to how members of the Council of Churches do.
Oh yeah, I need to go and get myself off the NCC mailing list. I think their causes come first, God second.
Do people learn nothing from history?
As Santayana said, "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it." I know very little about Zionism but what little I do suggests that it's a very complex movement that has roots in the 19th century and has manifested itself in various ways as times and conditions have changed. I'd like to learn more about it. As you indicate, Jewish opinion on the subject is varied. I can humbly recommend some booklets that are available from David Horowitz which put the whole issue in historical perspective leading up to the creation of the state of Israel in 1948 and the present conflicts there.
It seems Jews fatally return to the strategy of relying on the goodness of mankind. Look what that got them in the Polish ghetto. I think I have read something from Horowitz on Israel - I will have to learn some more.
I think it's a human folly for any of us to rely on the goodness of mankind. Even the coming celebration of hannukah has its origin in the first (so far as I know) attempt to perpetrate genocide against the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes. It ended in the festival of lights and the survival of the Jews but had a very inauspicious beginning. Incidentally, I have some books written by some excellent historians (some of them Jews) which describe how Stalin was planning a holocaust. This didn't come to fruition because he died in 1953 before his "final solution" could be effected. Of course, he had alot of practice having been responsible by that time for about 20 million deaths. By the way, if you'd like the names of the books I've referred to I'd be glad to convey them. If we keep up this correspondence we'll end up damn depressed!!
Sure, give me those names.
I wasn't aware about that with Stalin. I always thought most of Stalin's purges were political, not race based.
I'll start with giving you two of the best: "Stalin's Last Crime:The Plot Against the Jewish Doctors." This was written by Jonathan Brent and Vladimir Naumov. Brent is editorial director of Yale University Press and is currently writing a biography of the Soviet Jewish writer Isaac Babel (Ph.d., University of Chicago). Naumov is a professor of history who is investigating lost and misplaced persons by the commission created by former president Gorbachev. Another is "Stalin and the Jews" by Arno Lustiger, a survivor of Auschwitz and Buchenwald and a Jewish scholar and author. Yes, Stalin's purges were indeed political as was the collectivization debacle. But as he advanced in age and paranoia his home-grown Russian anti-Semitism became maniacal and took on a totally different dimension. As you will learn from these books (and not just from them but other scholarly works by such experts as Robert Conquest, Adam B. Ulam, etc.) he had gone beyond surface bigotry to the point where he had internment camps established and planned a holocaust. Incidentally, we seemed to agree that it would be the height of human folly for any people to rely on the goodness of human nature to save them from destruction. One last point. The December issue of "Commentary", which is an excellent magazine published by the American Jewish Committee has an article titled "First Genocide of the 20th Century?". It discusses how the Turks massacred at least 650,000 Armenians who were Christians. It probably seems an oversimplification but a large part of the problem is the perversity of human nature. But that's another whole volume!! By the way, the June issue of Commentary has an excellent article titled "The Disease of Anti-Semitism". Believe me, I'm not getting a commission but if you aren't reading "Commentary" you're missing some marvelous journalism!
Yes, "Commentary" and I'm quite sure you can subscribe to, or purchase it, in Canada. At any rate here is the pertinent information to find out: Subscription & Customer Service: (800) 829-6270 Website: www.commentarymagazine.com I'm sure you'd enjoy it. All best,
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