Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Vanity: Calling all Biology or Mathematics experts, I need an opinion on a problem.
12/5/2005

Posted on 12/05/2005 3:00:51 PM PST by dawn53

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-73 next last
To: spunkets

The brithrate is 0.5 antelopes/year/antelope. The death rate is 0.1/year. The two cannot be equal if the population is stable.


41 posted on 12/05/2005 4:08:12 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: supercat
"Death rate is one per animal per decade."

The avg lifespan is 10 years. Since there are 5 born per decade, 5 die per decade. The population just didn't pop up and start all in phase, it contains animals of all ages.

42 posted on 12/05/2005 4:09:36 PM PST by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: GRRRRR
What is the ratio of males to femals in the steady state population of 24,000?

If the animals have an average lifespan of ten years, then on average 1/10 of the population will die off each year. If the population is stable, that means an average number of yearly births also equal to 1/10 of the population. It doesn't matter--at least not over a thousand-year timespan--whether the average lifespan of ten years is a result of every animal dying precisely on its tenth birthday, or if it's a result of 99% of animals dying on their ninth birthday while 1% make it to age 109.

43 posted on 12/05/2005 4:12:57 PM PST by supercat (Sony delinda est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: dawn53

Just a thought: no mathematics is required in this problem, just some arithmetic. There is not even a differential equation involved, although it would be more interesting if there were.


44 posted on 12/05/2005 4:16:13 PM PST by RightWhale (Not transferable -- Good only for this trip)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dawn53
These things make my head hurt and I will probably make quite a few mistakes here.
A constant of 24,000 reproducing at half their lifespan of ten years would make for 12,000 new offspring/year.Multiply that times 1000 and you end up with 12,000,000.
At that with a 1-1,000,000 mutation rate the answer should be 12.
The problem is that there is no breakdown between male and female numbers as all 24,000 can`t be females.
Without that it is impossible to determine the exact birth numbers.
45 posted on 12/05/2005 4:16:27 PM PST by carlr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dawn53
I suspect said problem was hastily put together so as to make all of the arithmetic uncomplicated. You are right, the answer they are looking for is 12. Others on the thread are right, it makes no sense, unless 4 out of 5 of the births are lethal and the one out of a million estimate includes both lethal and non-lethal births.

Of course, if you remove the stable population restriction the problem can be made to make sense, but that would involve...gasp...variables.

And, this seems to model asexual reproduction. Kinda like the Fibonacci rabbits.

46 posted on 12/05/2005 4:17:42 PM PST by AmishDude (Your corporate slogan could be here! FReepmail me for my confiscatory rates.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: dawn53

12?


47 posted on 12/05/2005 4:19:38 PM PST by MikefromOhio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: supercat

woohooo!!

me and you agreed :)


48 posted on 12/05/2005 4:20:03 PM PST by MikefromOhio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: AmishDude

Also, the 4/5 births death assumption would mean they aren't included in the average 10-year lifespan.


49 posted on 12/05/2005 4:21:14 PM PST by AmishDude (Your corporate slogan could be here! FReepmail me for my confiscatory rates.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Right Wing Professor
"The brithrate is 0.5 antelopes/year/antelope.

Right.

" The death rate is 0.1/year. The two cannot be equal if the population is stable.

You're given the average lifespan, not the deathrate. You find the deathrate by noting that a stable population is a given and that requires the deathrate = birthrate.

50 posted on 12/05/2005 4:21:48 PM PST by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
You're given the average lifespan, not the deathrate.

deathrate = 1/(average lifespan).

51 posted on 12/05/2005 4:23:11 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: MikeinIraq

52 posted on 12/05/2005 4:23:30 PM PST by Chasaway (My puppy can lick your honor student...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
Since there are 5 born per decade, 5 die per decade. The population just didn't pop up and start all in phase, it contains animals of all ages.

If there are five antelopes born and five antelopes dying per decade, the average lifespan is not ten years--it is two years.

Consider: in a million years (number chosen large so as to render phasing effects trivial) there will have been 12,000,000,000 antelopes that lived, 24,000 at a time, a total of 24,000,000,000 antelope-years. It doesn't matter whether some animals lived for millenia while others lasted only minutes. The total number of antelope-years accummulated will be 24,000,000,000 (since a herd of 24,000 antelope will accumullate 24,000 antelope-years per year) and the total number of antelope will be 12,000,000,000 (birth rate of 5 antelope per antelope per decade). Thus an average of two antelope-years per antelope, or (more simply), two years.

53 posted on 12/05/2005 4:27:11 PM PST by supercat (Sony delinda est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: dawn53

BTW, my 1980's biology textbook considered the lifespan of bacteria to be infinite, since once a bacterium has split it can only be said to "die" if both offspring have done so. My personal take was (and remains) that average lifespan computations don't require any knowledge of individual lifetimes; counting the number of dying organisms per unit population will give an answer that is no less meaningful for bacteria than for antelopes (even though a few organisms might survive forever, they form such a small portion of the total number that their effect on the average is limited).


54 posted on 12/05/2005 4:31:55 PM PST by supercat (Sony delinda est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All

Here's the funny part, "the kid"(as he is affectionately know around here) is 17 and about to get his AA (we did dual credit instead of high school.)

He didn't ask me for help in his Calc w/Analytical Geometry classes because, well, frankly, I couldn't have helped him. But he did fine.

So here's, what should be a simple arithmetic problem, but because the problem is so poorly designed, he comes to me with a "Huh, what is this guy talking about?" and we get in a big discussion about "stable populations" and as has been said, male/female ratio, etc.

I'm sure the prof didn't think he was throwing out a controversial problem, it's only homework, that he probably won't spend much time looking over.

I'm just glad he doesn't come to me for help much. My brain is definitely suffering from "mental pause."

Thanks to everyone for their input. When we were having the discussion, I told him, I'll post it on FR and I know you'll get plenty of opinions.


55 posted on 12/05/2005 4:33:17 PM PST by dawn53
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: Chasaway

LOL

hey I KNEW taking Calculus in college would work for me eventually......

BTW I got an A last quarter and I am bragging about it :-)


56 posted on 12/05/2005 4:34:01 PM PST by MikefromOhio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: dawn53

yeah and add to that it's a word problem.

I don't know about everyone else, but those have always given me fits......


57 posted on 12/05/2005 4:35:16 PM PST by MikefromOhio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: supercat

Easy, if the species in question normally gives birth to more than one infant at a time. I don't know about the hyothetical antelope in class question, however, since there are multiple species in Africa of antelope-like animals.


58 posted on 12/05/2005 4:43:15 PM PST by Wolfstar ("In war, there are usually only two exit strategies: victory or defeat." Mark Steyn)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: supercat
Another question.Forgetting that there has to be some males in the population,taking the 24,000 number at 5 births per 10 year lifespan what is the population growth.
Taking the stated constant of 24,000 living for 10 years every year 10% of the population die equaling 2,400 animals.Of the remaining 21,600 half are not reproducing leaving just shy of 11,000 new births/year.
It would seem the birth/lifespan/death rates to maintain a population of 24,000 are much to high.
Of course in reality some of the births,which should over time be about 50%,would be males which would half the numbers and make the equations more plausible.

Corrections requested if I have calculated incorrectly.

59 posted on 12/05/2005 4:44:46 PM PST by carlr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: carlr
Of course in reality some of the births,which should over time be about 50%,would be males which would half the numbers and make the equations more plausible.

Standard practice when calculating birth rates is to specify it for some number of unsexed individuals; depending upon the male/female ratio, the female birthrate will be about twice that of the population as a whole while the male birthrate will be zero. If, within the antelopes, males and females are represented in equal numbers at all life stages, each female will give birth to an antelope per year, of which half will be males. Or an average of one female every two years.

60 posted on 12/05/2005 4:53:10 PM PST by supercat (Sony delinda est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-73 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson