Getting to the bottom of the Balkans

[Sam Gamgee]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_Massacre

http://www.geocities.com/serb_terrorism/serb.nationalism.orthodox.christian.terrorism.against.muslims.catholics.html

[Sam Gamgee]

I have been trying to rethink some of my assumptions and get some truth into what happened in the 1990s in the Balkans. It is difficult because the bias is incredible on this issue. Unless the Srebrenica is a fabrication I have a hard time believing that Milosevic and his generals have been demonized. Yet the second link is obviously high handed bias. I certaintly do not believe that a crusade is being waged against "innocent" Moslems by Russia or the Serbs. So I can see why those in the pro Serb camp feel that charges were trumped up against them by bleeding hearts for the Moslem world. It is also know that the Saudis had there hands in arming the KLA and Catholic mercenaries have come from the West to fight against the Serbs.

So I want to be objective as possible.

Why is it the general opinion by many is that the NATO war against Serbia was unjustified? Are you denying that Milosevic and his generals committed the atrocities they are accused of? Has the West painted the wrong picture of Milosevic? Why did Serbia cling onto a Communist dictator long after other Eastern European states removed their own? Is the feeling that NATO targetted Serbia unfairly because the KLA committed their own atrocities? Milosevic was really going in to protect Serbian minorities in Kosovo?

[Light Speed]

If there ever was a region that Satan would call club med it would be the Balkans.

Its dark and then some.

I think it reduces to a simple set which see's Europa desiring a buffer between them and the Russians.

Muslims are convienient fodder to create a torrid zone which will vex Russia endlessly and its Orthodox Church.

So ya....some of that old Eastern Empire/Constantinople...orthodox...France/Italy....and Greeks.

oh I forgot....and the Caliphate.

Balkans appears to be where all the train tracks meet up from the 4 corners.
and the enevitable wreck.

Russia is making great inroads into Europe.
Yet Europe will sleaze them and posture so that the buffer remains between the 3 continents.
Turks have simply given up [The old Caliphate].

Muslims up north are on their own.

[endthematrix]

I'm no expert, but I'll play.

NATO was seen as operating as an offensive force and out of traditional "sphere of influence." There was a strict nationalism keeping the "international community" out of internal affairs.

You may have to subdivide the conflicts. The Bosnian and Kosovo Wars have different facets.

[endthematrix]

"Muslims are convienient fodder"

And rightfully so.

[Light Speed]

France should be concerned....

Considering that the Muslims there ......just discovered fire : )

[Sam Gamgee]

Yeah, my post may have been confusing in that regard. They are linked simply because Milosevic is implicated in both.

I do recall that factor when the war was going on. Republicans were against the war for the reason you said and because it didn't appear to be a national security issue. I am not a fan of Clinton, but found that argument strange coming from Republicans. It was as though they became born again isolationists. This is a complex string of thinking because it is the battle between wars that are based on national security and others that are based on the moral obligation to intervene. There are even some, such as Pat Buchanan, who believe wars should be only fought strictly in self defense, as the founders had intended.

[Sam Gamgee]

LOL! I guess they never saw a Frenchman actually COOK a steak.

[endthematrix]

Look into Clinton authorizing the transferring arms to the Bosnians.

[Sam Gamgee]

It occurs to me to look through archives of some conservative sources such as the Cato Institute and TownHall Conservative. Maybe that will help. I started to Google for the Clinton connection to Bosnia but it mostly concerns him giving concessions to Britain and France.

[Sam Gamgee]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/DCH109A.html

Found it.

Not a wise move, was it? Adding to the full picture the factor of Islamifying the Bosnian army, makes the affairs of the 1990s even more complex. The article goes on to suggest that perhaps many of the so called Serbian atrocities were staged by Moslem divisions of the Bosnian army. That does seem just a little far fetched to me.

[endthematrix]

" That does seem just a little far fetched to me."

You've got to be kidding. The same Islamofacists who martyr themselves by blowing up schoolchildren?

[endthematrix]

MYTH: The gruesome Sarajevo massacres were carried out by the Serb side.

FACT: Few events have been such political turning points in this war as the three highly publicized and gruesome massacres of civilians in Sarajevo (Vase Miskina Street breadline in May '92, and the Markale marketplace in February ' 94 and August '95). Their political conseqences have been overwhelming: introduction of the total economic embargo on Serbia/Montenegro; total derailment of the Geneva peace process, and official introduction of NATO military involvement in the area; and, massive use of force against Serbian military and civilian targets, respectively. All avialable evidence by now shows that these were staged mass murders, carried out by the Muslim government against its own people, with at least tacit approval of some Western powers.

http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/politics/myth/massacres.html

"armed struggle waged by the Muslims of Bosnia-Hercegovina -- against the Serbs and Croats, as well as against their own brothers -- has been determined as much by the "needs" of the Muslim world"

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Bosnia/bodansky1.html

[Sam Gamgee]

Not far fetched that they would do it, but it just seems a convenient way to absolve the Milosevic regime. For instance how do I know the source I linked is not propoganda? For example I have been searching for sites that were against the Kosovo campaign. One was Pravda, another a socialist site, another clearly anti-American, another an internationalist site, an anti-war site, and then an anti-NATO site. All of them coming from an ongoing bias against the US as an imperialistic nations.

From what I read it seems that without a doubt Milosevic was cleansing Kosovo of Albanian Moslems. However, what happened after his pullout, is Albanian Moslems moving in and pushing out the remaining Serbs. Which proves at least that the KLA were/are no better than the Serbian army.

I did find some conservative sites, but their objection was based more on the fact that the region was complex and that American involvement would just make it even more so.

I am no friend of the Islamo-facists, don't get me wrong. And perhaps the analysis of the link is correct. That the Islamics infiltrated much of the Bosnian army and were provoking the Serbian army. That seems to be the pattern in Chechnya, where the movement is now almost totally in the hands of Islamic terrorists.

[endthematrix]

"but it just seems a convenient way to absolve the Milosevic regime."

And why not?

[Sam Gamgee]

Certainly interesting. The second link goes beyond what I had known - that Saudi Arabia had been financing the KLA. But that also Iran had been working in Bosnia to stage atrocities.

The first link makes the point that much of what happened by and against all sides was mass expulsions, not technically genocide.

I guess I am left with understanding Milosevic. The picture painted in the West is that he was an opportunist who used the nationalistic fervour to keep himself in power. A communist leftover from the Iron Curtain years.

[Sam Gamgee]

Milosevic was not the evil man I think he was?

[endthematrix]

That second link Bodansky 1992 Congressional testimony report and it's prophetic considering the events unfolding in France and the Netherlands.

[endthematrix]

Evil is subjective. Do you "think" he's evil or know it?

[Sam Gamgee]

Like this piece:

In the fall of 1991, these efforts were expanded with the establishment of "the Islamic Tide Brigade in Europe," the organization responsible for training and preparing Islamist terrorists for long-term operations in Western Europe, under the direct supervision of the newly promoted Brig. Gen. Bakri Hassan Salih, the Chief of Security Agency of the Sudanese RCC. The first target countries are France, Belglum, Holland, and the UK. In late-November 1991, a group of 16 Tunisian terrorists, a high quality assassination squad, left Khartoum for Paris and Tunis. Additional groups have begun penetrating Western Europe since February 1992.

[Sam Gamgee]

Well, I can only "think" it. I guess what bothers me is why keep a Communist dictator? I believe Communism is evil, and those who get to power as Communists are evil people. The question then is, was he a Communist hold out as it appears at first glance? I know what you mean by your question. I am evil as well, to a degree. I suppose I mean supremely evil, in the vein of Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot.