Posted on 07/17/2005 5:16:14 PM PDT by grellis
THIS THREAD IS INTENDED FOR READERS THAT HAVE COMPLETED THE BOOK! If you have not yet read the book, consider yourself warned: There will be spoilers on this thread.
For my fellow FReepers who have no intention of reading the book but would like to discuss the more controversial issues related to the work, I am asking you as politely as I can: DO NOT HIJACK THIS THREAD. We are all members of this forum and as such, it is not up to me to disallow anyone from participating in the discussion. That is why I am asking you--please do not hijack this thread. If you would like to discuss the more controversial aspects of the book, maybe you could start your own thread and ping us over there. If we are interested, we'll come.
In a word, no.
DD hated the Dark Arts. He used "ancient charms" (love) to protect Harry, by having him stay with his Aunt Petunia. What I'm looking forward to in Book 7 is finding out what DD's letter to Petunia said - how DD made it clear that Harry had to be allowed to stay at the Dursley residence for some amount of time each year in order to be protected. It said in GOF or OOTP that Harry could not be harmed by LV while under 17 and while going to the Dursley residence.
Of course, we all know that the Summer that follows HBP will be Harry's 17th Birthday and then he doesn't have the protection of the Dursley residence charm anymore.
But the "problem" of LV's and Harry's wand having the same core, and the retrograde curse thing on each other IS a problem. If they keep getting locked in that gold stream, how on earth does Harry kill LV? Does he have to borrow someone else's wand? Will the love in his heart be stronger than the hate in LV's and that will allow him to kill LV?
I don't know. So many questions, so few clues!
I don't think I've ever waited for the next in a series to come out. I've never read an UNcompleted series. I wait for them all to be published and THEN read them, except with Harry Potter. To continue, then add the fact that it will be the end of the series gives me great trepidation. As someone else wrote, they want the book, but they don't want the series to end. Me too!!!
I agree with your other conclusions. I think Snape was angry that he had to fulfil his vow to DD and kill him. I agree that DD, between the blackened hand, and the potion he had to drink to check out the Horcrux in the cave, was dying, and wished for his death to "serve a purpose" and using Snape while protecting Draco Malfoy from performing an unforgivable curse - well, that's pure DD.
But if Snape WAS/IS evil, then it makes no sense that he didn't kidnap Harry and take him to LV after killed DD, when they were at the edge of grounds, where the Death Eaters were going to Hogsmeade so they could Apparate.
So, how the Snape story ends has me intrigued. I agree with the posters on here and you who say that he must have been very much in love with Lily, and that's the reason he hated James so much. BUT. But if Harry looks so much like James, except that he his Mother's eyes, don't you think that might make Snape act more kindly toward Harry - the love for Lily that he feels and must feel when he sees Harry's got his Mother's eyes???
But isn't it fun to discuss the unanswered questions, ponder the "clues" we think we have, while waiting somewhat impatiently but with trepidation for the final book? It's all just too delicious, if you ask me.
Oops, almost forgot. DD is going to be around to help Harry. Not only from the "former Headmasters" picture in the Headmaster's office, but perhaps even from the Chocolate Frogs? Or from other pictures of him that have been taken, although we haven't heard about there being a LOT of pics with DD in them. Even so, from portraits, from pictures, he will still be helping Harry.
And where did Fawkes go? After singing the mourning song for DD, which convinced me that DD was dead, along with DD's portrait being on his former office wall, I think Fawkes is going to show up at the Dursley residence, and somehow is going to play some part in the end of LV. I don't know how but I suspect after COS, and healing Harry's leg in GOF, OOTP (and HBP?), I have to believe that Fawkes is now going to be with Harry.
Sigh. I keep diverting myself from answering the last objection I had of yours - that DD will have a Horcrux. I don't believe that DD could have had a Horcrux. Not only did he not like or respect the Dark Arts, creating a Horcrux requires a murder. Who did DD ever murder?
And if he did murder someone, what is the Horcrux? JKR says that all the books, but especially book 1 (if I understood her interview with the kids is correct) have clues to how book 7 will turn out. I even thought I read that she said that book 1 had all the clues to the final book. That's one of the reasons I just reread book #1, but it didn't help me figure anything out I hadn't already put together.
OTOH, there were clues, asides, in GOF and OOTP that I did miss on the previous 3 readings, over a year ago, that I was amazed. One thing more - in GOF, pg. 565 of paperback copy, where LV is discussing 6 missing DE's: 3 are dead, one is too weak to return (Karkaroff), one thinks he has left forever, and "he will be killed" (Snape) and one has already returned to my service and is at Hogwarts (Bartie Crouch Jr, the Moody imposter).
Okay from that, is Snape really a double agent if LV thinks that Snape has left him?
Sorry for the long post. :o)
TNT
He also seemed horrified at the thought of a person splitting his own soul, which is what a horcrux would do.
I have been thinking a lot about that whole monologue of LVs. I think that LV is perfectly aware that Snape is a mole and that he is the one who "left forever," the one who would be killed. LV never says when, after all, and he has many good reasons for keeping Snape alive. Well, maybe not so many now, since Snape has left Hogwarts in apparent disgrace. Things look bleak for Snape, IMO. Everyone is going to want him dead.
JKR was asked in an interview why the Order members didn't communicate via the Frog cards. My hubby either saw or heard the interview--he said JKR seemed completely taken by surprise at the question, and she wished she'd thought of that. Maybe she never really had, maybe she's just playing dumb, I don't know. I think that DD left behind many of his thoughts for HP et al to view in the pensieve, including why it was he was so certain that Snape had, indeed, returned to the fold full of genuine remorse. I hope that is the case. If the whole question of why DD trusted Snape goes unanswered, I am going to be incredibly disappointed.
I like Ginny, but I hope that she's not front and center in book 7. She has been getting quite a build-up the last two books, which is fine, but I would hate it if Hermione was just kind of, well, not pushed aside but lessened in importance. She's probably my favorite character, even though she can be an occasional PITA. Not only is she brilliant, she has always shown nothing but absolute loyalty toward HP and Ron. HP cna focus on his love life when he gets rid of LV. In the meantime, he needs Hermy-own-ninny!
Ok, I have been re-reading OOTP with my son, and now I have a question that I don't think has been addressed as yet.
Since Dumbledore was the secret-keeper for the location of the headquarters for the Order of the Phoenix, what happens now that he is (theoretically, anyway) dead? Can anyone -- Kreacher, for example -- now disclose the location?
You guys are SO RIGHT about the horcrux - I forgot someone had to die to create one. All the more reason for me to get my hot cup of tea and start reading HBP again next week.
As for Snape hating Harry, his mother's eyes or not, he looks just like his father and that HAS to rub Snape the wrong way. Lily will never be his and the face of his rival is always there to remind him of that fact. Still, he's never physically hurt Lily's son right?
{I love these brief escapes from reality to indulge in a world of our imagination... it sure beats the boob-tube}.
Anyway, whats killing me is that all the other books are back on my shelf in the US except for HBP and GOB (unabridged on tape) - guess I'll be toting some more books back here after Xmas... of course its cold and dark over here so I'll have plenty of time to read until the sunlight reappears.
Good question. I'd guess that the secret is now permanent. My first thought was the opposite, but that doesn't make logical sense from a consistency standpoint -- the whole point of a secret-keeper is choosing someone who would die rather than reveal the secret, but if by dying the secret can be revealed, then what's the point?
May I be added to the ping list?
You're added!
I am listening to HBP on CD (Costco has it for $38!) and thought of that very question the other night.
But kevkrom's answer makes sense. I don't remember if it's in the book or not, but in the PoA movie Wormtail asks Sirius what he would have done if Voldie were after him. Sirius yells that he would have died rather then betray his friends. It does make sense that now the secret is safe forever.
I just finished OOTP again, I'm going to start on HBP today. I'm going to be reading every word very carefully!
Of course, if my guess is correct, then no one else could be given the secret, even if the entire Order so desired. It would have to work both ways.
Well, there went one of my assumptions. I thought that perhaps DD could talk to Harry from the Chocolate Frogs, but from this interview, it appears that JKR hasn't had any of the cards "talking" up to now, so that they do not act like a photograph on the wall. Rats!
I think that DD will be available either in the pensieve, or from his portrait in the Headmaster's office, and perhaps even more importantly, from the pictures that reside in Grammauld house.
I think after Harry leaves the Dursley residence when he's turned 17, he might be at the Black residence, where there are photographs that have DD in them.
I also didn't respond to an earlier post about the Room of Requirement figuring into book 7 - and I agree that it will. Since it was used so much in HBP, and was the way that DE's got from Hogsmeade into Hogwarts, I suspect that that room holds more "answers" in book 7. I think that LV, a practitioner of the Dark Arts, certainly would have found that room; we know that his DE's know about it.
But I have NO idea how JKR is going to use that room to tie up all the loose ends, and end the series!
On Snape. Yes, I agree that he is the one who LV says "has left me forever. He will be killed." I referenced that in one of my previous posts. That he isn't seen as a double agent by LV. LV, in fact, sees him as a traitor, and one who will pay for the "crime" of leaving the DE's by dying.
So, Snape is an outcast for having killed DD, and an outcast because LV does believe Snape has left him, so where on earth does Snape go? His "champion", DD, is dead, and worse, dead at Snape's hands. We just don't know who sealed the vow between Snape and DD, but if it's Lupin as someone else thought, it's going to be pretty difficult for Lupin, since he's a werewolf, to be anyone's "champion".
So many questions, so few clues, and so long to wait for book 7, which I await with trepidation, wishing that there were going to be 12 books in the series, since it has been pointed out that JKR also loves the mystical number, 12.
I'll be rereading HBP while I'm on travel the next 2 weeks, and hope that I'll pick up some things that I missed the first time through.
Hasta la vista!
Where are you when it's so cold and dark? Reminds me of Moscow where Summer seemed to be about 3 weeks along, then right back into Fall, which was loooooooooooooong and followed by Winter which was also too long.
Do you have access to artificial light in the form of Sunboxes? When I visited my brother in Moscow, while he was in the USN, he could check them out from the State Dept. like a book! I needed one, as I "sink" really fast without sunlight.
Sam's, on ocasion, but without any regularity, frequently has the paperback version of the previous books, for $5.38.
If I found them, bought them, and mailed them to you, (to be reimbursed, of course) would that help tide you over until you can get your hands on your own copies, at Christmas? I know what it's like to be away from one's own stash of books.
Let me know if I can help?
His father's looks and his mother's eyes are the combination that must drive Snape nuts -- seeing a reminder of Lily in what is essentially James' face has got to eat him up inside.
Also, a bad attitude toward Harry is good for his cover.
As far as hurting Harry, Snape has always tried to teach and protect him, even on his way "out the door", so to speak. The ability to control his emotions and use non-verbal spells will be crucial for Harry to succeed.
You are a sweetheart! Thank you so much for the offer but I also have two huge American History books - One on Sam Adams by David McCullough and "Battle Cry of Freedom" on the Civil War by James McPherson that I plan to read between now and Chistmas (as well as HBP again and listen to GOF). I also plan to try get through Rushdie's "Satanic Verses", Clancy's "Rainbow Six" and Micheners "Space" before the end of the year.
I read a wide range of stuff and in light of our conflicts around the world, my hubby and I felt we needed a reminder of just what our country is about - consequently we're re-learning American History. (School was so long ago.) Plus, this gives us an edge on educating our son on the great nation he's a citizen of.
Right now, we're in Sweden for the next 2 years. Its a beautiful country but can you say "socialist"? Anyway, in Stockholm, the summer night was only twilight and in the winter you get about 6 hours of daylight. - The land of extremes....
;)
I don't think Kreacher can do that. He belongs to Harry now and, even though he hates Harry and hates being owned by him, he cannot really betray him. He MUST obey everything Harry tells him, as we found out when DD tested him at the Dursleys'. Remember when Dobby worked for the Malfoys, he wasn't able to tell Harry anything at all about his Master and his Master's activities.
When we visited Monticello last year I bought a book titled "American History, Things you will not learn in school" It is a wonderful book. Has stories about the revolution and poems. I had heard one of the poems as a child and found it in this book. In fact it became my screen name. If you go to my about page the poem is written there. David McCullough is a good historian. I am loving his 1776 book. I hope that you can keep your sanity while in Sweden. :) Especially with all the Swiss Miss' running around.!
I have loved reading your posts about the HP books. You have given me some insight into them that I had not thought about. I really wish we had a book club on FR.
Wasn't there mention in the book of a potion that made you appear to be dead but in reality you were in a deep sleep? I keep hoping that DD is in a deep sleep. I know what everyone else is surmising is more than likely the case, Snape and DD planned his death, but I hope he is just in a deep sleep. Of course he wouldn't be in the picture if he weren't already dead.
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