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To: lentulusgracchus; exnavychick; robertpaulsen

Thank you (and for Ex Navy Chick's admonition) for your call to discussion "without any penalty to sexual performance, self-image, or social stature."

Ethics, medicine, law and their shared subsets are subject to disingenuous representation - lies disquised as complicated truths.

Basing our government and our ethics on the Declaration of Independence (while not quite as good as if you do everything I tell you to - grin) would be a good start. It would sufficient to protect the rights - and the life - of even utilitarians.

First, will life be ended? (And/or is the person whose life is to be ended a direct threat to the life of another and can the threat only be ended by the taking of life or is there some lesser force that would be protective?) Second, is liberty threatened? (and the rest) Third, is the persuit of happiness or the right of personal property that happiness, liberty, and ultimately life, depend on threatened?

In Terri's case, the issue was one of liberty to decide whether to have one's body subjected to medical intervention. I can support the right to exercise this liberty, because if you don't "own" your own body, you have no liberty and your life is in constant danger.

However, since her life was at stake, I would have required much more evidence of her actual intent and would have erred on the side of "no documentation, it didn't happen" that lawyers seem to require of doctors.

I was very uncomfortable about the conflicts of interest of Michael Schiavo as Terri's guardian and could not have cooperated with the medical intervention of removal of the tube rather than simple discontinuation of its use.

But, finally, the deal breaker for me was the act of Greer to forbid any provision of hydration and nutrition by natural means. To make the distinction between "reflexive" or "involuntary" action by Terri to swallow and to speak of her as "trapped in her body" is to perpetuate the myth of dichotomy between mind and body. The two are not divisible.

We do not have minds that inhabit our bodies. We *are* our bodies *and* our minds. Our mind is a function of our physical bodies. Furthermore, the doctrine of brain stem function as continued life and brain stem death as definition of death are reflections of the fact that the body will not live with even the most invasive and technical medical intervention if the brain stem is dead.


461 posted on 04/23/2005 6:23:51 AM PDT by hocndoc (Choice is the # 1 killer in the US)
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To: hocndoc; lentulusgracchus; robertpaulsen
Well, I haven't been on FR all that long, but I know that ad hominems are not unheard of around here, lol. Thing is, this case has been so emotional for so many that things really got out of hand.

I think there is a better way to discuss what happened, and how to prevent such tragedies in the future. Calling names, insulting each other gratuitously, etc. does nothing to help matters. It just entrenches people further into their positions, and wheels are spun.

I also think it's a shame for folks to be treating each other so, especially when I would assume that 99% of the posters here are good and decent people.

Good luck to y'all, and I hope you can find a way to agree to disagree.
464 posted on 04/23/2005 9:29:00 AM PDT by exnavychick (There's too much youth; how about a fountain of smart?)
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To: hocndoc
Thank you for the effort involved in your posts above.
I find your position both morally compelling and logically consistent.

The most disheartening aspect of the entire event was not that a three-sided coin - Schiavo's staggering hypocrisy / Greer's judicial arrogance / the self-righteousness of both - was minted from the ore of human fallibility, but that no one with the authority to do so could manage to find the testicles to blast it from the sky once it was tossed into the ethical air and so save an innocent woman's life.

465 posted on 04/23/2005 9:39:21 AM PDT by tomkat
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To: hocndoc
Our mind is a function of our physical bodies

According to one school of thought. That assertion has not been proved.

Some first class scientists and thinkers have examined the empirical evidence and come to a different conclusion. Nobel prize-winning neurophysiologist Sir John C. Eccles and the eminent philosopher Sir Karl Popper were perhaps the two best known of those men and women who have looked at the evidence and concluded the dualist-interactionist model is a much better fit.

The eminent neurosurgeon Wilder Penfield came to a similar conclusion based on hundreds if not thousands of experiments carried out on conscious epilepsy patients whose exposed brains he electrically stimulated.

Now, you may disagree with Eccles, Popper, and Penfield. But your disagreement does not mean their views are unsubstantiated or irrelevant.

In any event, the dualist-interactionist model does not serve to exonerate Greer, Schiavio, Felos et al, or to justify the forced starvation and dehydration of Terri Schiavo. Many murderers have sought to rationalize their deed by appealing to their own sense that the victim was better off dead. But that's all it is--a cynical and desperate rationalization.

492 posted on 04/24/2005 10:18:57 AM PDT by JCEccles (Andrea Dworkin--the Ward Churchill of gender politics.)
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