I'm not in agreement. Walking away from this fight leaves them FLORIDA. And ultimately, AMERICA.
Forgive? God, please help me do so!
Forget?
Posted on 03/31/2005 7:49:04 AM PST by John Robertson
A very good Freeper has another thread going on right now, called "Let's End the Rancor." I started to respond, and realized...my RANCOR ain't going away any time soon. So....
NO! I will never forgive them.
I will never forgive the death cabal that forsook common decency and Judeo-Christian principles, and made a Never-give-in stand just to give those who embrace life grief, tension and tortured, sleepless nights.
Everyone copes with grief and anger differently...and you don't deserve to be mocked or flayed with Scripture at this time simply because you're expressing righteous rage.
You already know that forgiveness is for the benefit of the forgiver. It's not to excuse the wrongdoing or the wrongdoer, but to release your heart from an undeserved burden. May you experience some small measure of peace today for your own sake, even in the midst of your emotional pain. And may the anger you are feeling now begin to transform itself into a powerful energy, channeled toward real change.
"Remember the Alamo!" was a battle cry in its time. "Never Forget!" followed 9/11. Implacable rancor, appropriately focused, might ensure those responsible "Remember Terri Schiavo!"...
"The "pro-life" cult gives me the creeps."
How very sad for you. Perhaps the crux of this is, that some see her as a vegetable and others do not. Brain damaged yes, but not a tomato. Everything else proceeds from there. A little understanding please.
Forgive but never, never forget and work towards making a change.
Amen.
There's a spirit, FUR SHUR, but that's not what it is.
When Forgiveness Is a Sin
By Dennis Prager
The bodies of the three teen-age girls shot dead last December by a fellow student at Heath High School in West Paducah, Ky., were not yet cold before some of their schoolmates hung a sign announcing, "We forgive you, Mike!" They were referring to Michael Carneal, 14, the killer.
This immediate and automatic forgiveness is not surprising. Over the past generation, many Christians have adopted the idea that they should forgive everyone who commits evil against anyone, no matter how great and cruel and whether or not the evildoer repents.
The number of examples is almost as large as the number of heinous crimes. Last August, for instance, the preacher at a Martha's Vineyard church service attended by the vacationing President Clinton announced that the duty of all Christians was to forgive Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber who murdered 168 Americans. "Can each of you look at a picture of Timothy McVeigh and forgive him?" the Rev. John Miller asked. "I have, and I invite you to do the same."
Though I am a Jew, I believe that a vibrant Christianity is essential if America's moral decline is to be reversed. And despite theological differences, Christianity and Judaism have served as the bedrock of American civilization. And I am appalled and frightened by this feel-good doctrine of automatic forgiveness.
This doctrine advances the amoral notion that no matter how much you hurt others, millions of your fellow citizens will forgive you. It destroys Christianity's central moral tenets about forgiveness. Even by God, forgiveness is contingent on the sinner repenting, and it can be given only by the one sinned against.
" And if your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him," reads Luke 17:3-4. "And if seven times of the day he sins against you, and seven times of the day turns to you saying, I repent, you shall forgive him."
These days one often hears that "It is the Christian's duty to forgive, just as Jesus forgave those who crucified him." Of course, Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified him. But Jesus never asked God to forgive those who had crucified thousands of other innocent people. Presumably he recognized that no one has the moral right to forgive evil done to others.
You and I have no right, religiously or morally, to forgive Timothy McVeigh or Michael Carneal; only those they sinned against have that right, If we are automatically forgiven no matter what we do, why repent? In fact, if we forgive everybody for all the evil they do, God and his forgiveness are unnecessary. We have substituted ourselves for God.
I host a talk-radio show, and when confronted with such arguments, some callers offered another defense: "The students were not forgiving Carneal for murdering the three students. They were forgiving him for the pain he caused them." Such self centered thinking masquerading as a religious ideal is a good example of the moral disarray in much of religious life.
Some people have a more sophisticated defense of the forgive-every-one-everything doctrine: doing so is psychologically healthy. It brings "closure." This is therapy masquerading as idealism: "I forgive you because I want to feel better."
Until West Paducah, I believed that Christians will lead America's moral renaissance. Though I still believe that, the day those students, with the support of their school administration, hung out that sign I became less sanguine. If young Christians have inherited more values from the '60s culture than from their religion, where can we look for help?
I would have never used the term if the poster didn't use it himself. I am addressing what is in the content of the thread.
Yes, life is so creepy. I'm going to go roll around in some blood now. Death is so much more fun.
Why can't more FReepers express wisdom like you just did. Thanks!
Thank you, John, for your impassioned words moved by adherence to and lover for the truth.
(Moral Absolutes Ping - figured this is a good and timely discussion for the list.)
Cy, with all due respect, and I mean this, one cannot forgive someone for the harm they do to another person. It is neither logical, scripturally sound, nor does it lead anyone closer to God. Dr. Laura writes about this. We are told to forgive those who offend us. If we forgive those who offend and harm others - especially when those offenders aren't repentent or sorry (indeed, they glory in their shame and are no doubt planning more diabolical acts) - we in essence give them a free pass.
Have you ever seen a mother or father who refuses to discipline or correct the children? The children become horrible little monsters. I realized years ago that to never correct or discipline one's children is another form of child abuse. Condemnation of evil is one's responsibility and duty to maintain a human civilization. It protects oneself from falling into the same trap of moral relativism or outright wickedness that those we shallowly "forgive" are in.
Another point, which has helped me in the past. We can (and should) be righteously angry with those who cause harm to others. But that doesn't mean we have to hate them. God loves all souls, as we are all His children. But that doesn't mean He isn't very, very angry with those who egregiously disobey Him and cause terrible suffering to others. So we should follow His instructions and while doing whatever each of us can to condemn evil, we are under no obligation to forgive those who cause harm, are unrepentent, and are no doubt planning more.
To think that "forgiveness" means we have to forgive Mugabe, Castro, Jeffrey Dahmer, Stalin, Hitler, Felos, and countless other cruel and wicked people is a false philosophy that should be rejected. We can sorrow for them, though. We are indeed called upon to forgive those who offend us personally. But that still doesn't mean that we have to think they are good people, hang out with them, or let them have their way.
The best way to forgive those who wrong us personally is to understand that behind everything that happens to me is God's hand, some how or other. How do we know this? We know it when we have offered our lives to God to do with as He wills, not as we will. And to know that those who cause harm have a very, very dark future ahead.
Looks like Don Imus.
That's pure assumption you're making here. You have no way of knowing what kind of mental state, thoughts, and feelings existed within Terri Schiavo's head in her last fifteen years, and nobody else knows either with any certainty. That's the whole point here. Men have tried to replace God as the power that decides when life begins and ends. That's what modern man is doing--trying to replace God and become some kind of god who decides when and if people are born and when they die.
This is just the start of this issue. Our society has suffered a huge moral decline in the last sixty years and before long there will surely be attempts to broaden the definiton of "persistent vegetative state" and "brain death." This is just the beginning and we have to stop this death train before they come for you when you're disabled someday and tell you your life isn't worth living. We're doing this for everyone, my friend, including you.
Reading your reply made me feel better. Please read reply #81.
Jesus was praying for those who had offended and cruelly used him. He was being an example for us. He never taught that every evil person should be immediately forgiven by everyone else on earth - especially when the evildoers aren't even sorry.
This is a very misunderstood teaching.
Many people, myself included, utterly disagree with your conclusions.
"How about using your anger for a good cause? Instead of stewing in you fury, why not funnel your emotion into action? Use that energy to fight for what you believe in."
You imply so much...that I don't funnel emotion into action, that I don't use that energy to fight for what I believe in. You know nothing about my actions. I do not stew in my fury...I hand it off to those who have earned it. Which is one of the main themes--maybe THE main theme--of my post.
"If we are automatically forgiven no matter what we do, why repent? In fact, if we forgive everybody for all the evil they do, God and his forgiveness are unnecessary. We have substituted ourselves for God."
Spot-on. Prager is good. Thanks for this.
Having been a student of the Vedas for many years, the very same thing is said.
By feeling righteous anger at evil, one moves forward in one's relationship with God, Who is all good.
Those who misunderstand this actually help evil along. Sad, but true.
That's why he was the Son of God. We are but mere men, and I for one don't think I can equal Jesus in forgiveness capacity.
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