REM870 Accessory Question

3/28/05 | Bear_Slayer

[Sax]

Not fun - sounds like maybe a drunk? That's another nice thing about the ole' scattergun. Unless you're completely smacked out, I would imagine the sound of one being racked would sober most folks up a good bit. The first time my Ridgeback heard me rack one, she slunk down right away and crawled over to her dog bed. (She's obviously not a hunting dog unless you count any small mammal or reptile scurrying around the yard.)

[PoorMuttly]

I think it is no longer made by Marble's, and hope the new version is as effective as the original.

A-5's are great, as is the old Rem. M-11. Also possible to mount a pistol grip on it, since it is recoil operated, with no gas system in the stock. The new USMC issue Benelli R1 shotgun and the R1 rifle has an underbarrel gas system, and should also work.

The pistol-gripped semi-auto shotgun was used by Mr. Dillinger some years back, and it is suspected that Muttly's ancestor gave him the idea. I would not be at all surprised.

[PoorMuttly]

Good boy.

[Graycliff]

What it proves is just being able to hit something at 400 yards is useless if you don't have enough power to deliver a killing shot. The 308 is marginal at best when hunting elk, I think I'd limit it to deer size game. Some ranch's in CO and NM have caliber restrictions, with an 06 being at the bottom of the list.

[Sax]

"An elastic stock sleeve with ammo loops" - I dig mine but it's starting to slip a bit, like an old sweat sock that doesn't stay up like it used to. I think I might like a velcro one, or one that laces up if they even make those...

[PoorMuttly]

You may be able to wrap a couple of velcro straps around it, but if the shell loops stretch, it's not worth it. I would like a lace-up model too. So far, my elastic ones are working.

[Max in Utah]

I installed a "Speed-Feed" buttstock on my son's Mossberg; it holds 4 rounds total in 2 spring loaded recesses just back of the grip section, on the right side. It wouldn't do to bang around the back country with, but for a house gun it should be okay.

[TaMoDee]

You are correct. I put my Elk down with a .308 no problem at 50 yds and have shot numerous Mule and Whitetail with the same .308. BUT if I was hunting in wide open country I still take and use my .300 WM. I don't know where the good olde boy lives that's why I recommended a .300. Also if he gets to hunt Moose or bigger in Canada then a .300 is a must for a nice clean kill. If I had the bucks to buy only one rifle I'd buy A .300 WM.
"Good shots and clean kills to ya!"

[org.whodat]

You are a lot of fun. I always like to make fun of the "my gun can kill-em deader than yours" crowd. I watched a game manager in south Africa cull an elephant herd on discovery tv. a few years back. His gun was a military FAL, every time he pulled the trigger an elephant went down. Next you need to tell the military that they shouldn't be shooting those old 308's at the thousand yard range. Actually the late Great Jack O'Connor used the lowly 270 to hunt elk, do you think he might have taken one are two?

[org.whodat]

I was having a bit of fun with him. However, there is not an animal walking that I couldn't take down with a 308. However, I never told him that the 308 was the only rifle I use. But for a person on a limited budget who doesn't want to take the mule kick of a 300, then the 308 is as it gets for an all around 30cal.

[Swordmaker]

Also consider #4 shot for inside the home. Close range shots won't see the roughly 27 pellets separate enough so they will hit all together and be plenty lethal. You also get the added benefit of reducing the risk of over-penetrating walls and endangering other friendly occupants or anything else. Here's an 870 wearing the 18" barrel

At the ranges inside a house, bird shot will do best... each individual pellet does not carry enough ooomph to go through too many walls (After passing through 2, 1/2inch thick sheet rock panels, the energy is considerably reduced) and hit loved ones... but at under 20 feet, it will be devastating to an intruder. The group does not spread much and carries a high number of foot pounds of energy that WILL be delivered directly to the target bad-guy.

Outside? Go with the slugs or OO buck shot for defense.

[Squantos]

Well said grasshopper !

[sparkomatic]

The deer in my area are numerous and tame.

If the deer are that tame, see if you can get them to just lay down in the skillet for you.

[Graycliff]

Just so happens i saw the same show. Yes he did use a 308, and yes he was taking head shots, and yes he was shooting ball ammo, whats your point?. Sorry where not hunting elephants in North America, were hunting 200 lb deer ( not many two hundred pounders in TX ) or 600 + lb elk. The shots are at longer ranges and require proper bullet design and velocity to assure effective and humane kills. As i said before the 308 pales in comparison to the 300 mags.
This get even funnier when you try to compare what are considered bench-rest rifles and cartridges which are designed to punch holes in paper, to rifle cartridge combos designed for the taking of big game. Don't get me wrong, i think the 308, and the 7mm08 are great cartridges for deer size game out to 300yrds with proper bullet design. Do you know why the us military adopted the 308? heres a clue, it wasn't because it had more power or better accuracy than the 30-06.
Ahhhh, Jack O'Connor i used to spend hours reading his story's and books ( just so happens i share the same last name as him, no relation ). Jack O'Conner, Peter Capstick, Robert Ruark used to keep me entertained for hours with their hunting adventures. Yes your right about O'conner and the 270, he took Both Afican and North American game with the 270. He was also one of the first to start hunting with the 300 mags, when they came out of wildcat stage and went into factory production. His first 300 was the same as my first 300, a 721 Remington chambered in 300 H&H, unlike him i choose not to keep mine in that caliber. Mine was sent to Roy Weatherby, where it was re-chambered for his new Weatherby 300 Magnum cartridge, later to be called the 300 Weatherby ( for those that don't know it's a modified 300 H&H). Just because O'Conner took elk with a 270 doesn't say much to me. When i was a kid growing up in Oregon, most of the elk taken by poachers were taken with 218's and 22 hornets and some 22 rim-fires. Reason i know this? my father was a Game Warden for the Umatilla National Forest.

[Graycliff]

(I never told him that the 308 was the only rifle I use.)

Beware the man with one gun, and never, never challenge him to a shooting contest.

[PoorMuttly]

Tactical Briefs #10, October 1998

Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition

For home defense, a shotgun is superior to a handgun in terms of being able to stop a violent intruder as quickly as possible. A reliable, well-made, pump-action shotgun can usually be purchased for less than the cost of a handgun of comparable quality. Also, inexpensive birdshot ammunition, typically used for training applications, is about three-fourths the cost, round for round, of comparable handgun ammunition.

Most people typically choose a shotgun for home defense for one of three general reasons: 1) to minimize wall penetration to reduce the danger to innocent third parties in case of a missed shot, 2) to maximize wound trauma to stop a vicious assailant as quickly as possible, or 3) because a shotgun does not require as much skill as a handgun to put lead on target.

If you're considering a shotgun for home defense or already have one, we suggest you give some serious thought to attending a one or two day "defensive shotgun" training course from a reputable shooting school. (We have a few schools listed on our Links page.) It's one thing to be armed with a well-equipped, high-tech shotgun and premium personal defense ammunition, but if you're not a skilled shotgun operator, you're the weakest link in your last-ditch home defense weapon system.

Shotgun Pellet Wound Ballistics
A shotgun pellet produces wound trauma by crushing the tissue it comes into direct contact with as it penetrates. In order to produce wound trauma that will be effective in quickly stopping an attacker, the pellets must penetrate his body deeply enough to be able to pass through a vital cardiovascular structure and cause rapid fatal hemorrhage to quickly deprive the brain of oxygenated blood needed to maintain consciousness.

Shotgun pellets are classified into two general categories: 1) birdshot, of which individual pellets are typically less than .20 caliber in diameter, and 2) buckshot, which varies in diameter from .24 caliber to .36 caliber.

Table 1 and Table 2 list nominal size and weight information about lead birdshot and buckshot, respectively.

Table 1. Lead Birdshot

Shot
Number Pellet Diameter
(Inches) Average Pellet
Weight (Grains) Approximate # of
Pellets per Ounce
12 .05 .18 2385
11 .06 .25 1750
9 .08 .75 585
8 1/2 .085 .88 485
8 .09 1.07 410
7 1/2 .095 1.25 350
6 .11 1.95 225
5 .12 2.58 170
4 .13 3.24 135
2 .15 4.86 90
BB .18 8.75 50

Table 2. Lead Buckshot

Shot
Number Pellet Diameter
(Inches) Average Pellet
Weight (Grains)
4 .24 20.6
3 .25 23.4
2 .27 29.4
1 .30 40.0
0 .32 48.3
00 .33 53.8
000 .36 68.0

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.

........

12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

Third choice is any standard or reduced recoil 2 ¾-inch #00 lead buckshot load from Winchester, Remington or Federal.

If you choose a reduced recoil load or any load containing hardened Magnum #00 buckshot you increase the risk of over-penetration because these innovations assist in maintaining pellet shape integrity. Round pellets have better sectional density for deeper penetration than deformed pellets.

Fourth choice is any 2 ¾-inch Magnum shotshell that is loaded with hardened, plated and buffered #4 buckshot. The Magnum cartridge has the lowest velocity, and the lower velocity will help to minimize pellet deformation on impact. The hardened buckshot and buffering granules also help to minimize pellet deformation too. These three innovations help to maximize pellet penetration. Number 4 hardened buckshot is a marginal performer. Some of the hardened buckshot will penetrate at least 12 inches deep and some will not.

[Bear_Slayer]

I'll put a salt lick out for them. Is there a pepper lick too?br>

[Graycliff]

Once you dip them in milk and roll the in flower their to skittish to handle.

[Swordmaker]

Good information, Muttly, but I will stick with large birdshot indoors. The reason is that your tables and information treat each pellet as though it is a single projectile in its penetration... at the ranges a shotgun might be used inside a house, the mass of pellets has little time to spread. The entire mass of pellets and the footpounds of energy carried by the entire mass will hit a very small area of the target. At 12 feet, almost 100% of the shot will be inside a 3" circle with the vast majority still inside 2" when fired from a full choke barrel. I think that will be sufficient to stop 70% of attackers.

As you are probably aware, nothing is 100% when it comes to stopping power except for perhaps hand grenades ;^)... Colonel Hatcher showed that even the most powerful handguns topped out at about 75%, but I think a shotgun blast could improve that percentage a few points.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

I am well aware of the problem of hitting bad guys with too little stopping power... but I am also aware that sheet rock walls are not going to stop many things with superior penetrating power. I think a larger birdshot (preferably lead... I am not too worried about giving an attacker lead poisoning) such as #4 shot will carry enough penetration at close ranges without carrying deadly force after penetrating two sheets of half inch sheetrock.

The impact may be less today than when I was selling guns 30 years ago because of the steel shot massing less for a given size.