I don't know where you got the idea the Shroud was found at the Battle of Poitiers. It wasn't. It's owner, Geoffrey de Charny, standard bearer of the King, author of the French Code of Chivalry, died defending his King. His widow and daughter, strapped for cash to continue endowing the chapel in Lirey that Geoffrey built to house the shroud, decided to display the relic.
If you noticed de Charny's position, it was the standard bearer for the King which meant that he fought at the side of the King and was the King's last line of defense in battle. It means that de Charny was the most exalted of all the knights in France... and the most trusted. He also wrote the book that established the STANDARD for knightly conduct, the code of Chivalry. This is not exactly your standard dishonest charlatan who would have a fake shroud manufactured so that he could waste his own fortune on maintaining the church he built to house it.
You find it unlikely that the followers of the most important man in history would retain and care for things that touched him or were left behind by him... I don't.
I might agree with you on the sudden appearance of the "Fair Copy" of the Declaration should be looked at with skepticism... but NOT to dismiss it out of hand as you do. In 1989 a bargain hunter discovered one of the 500 "official" authorized copies of the DofC behind a painting he bought for $4. The lucky finder sold it for $2.42 million... and it was resold in 2000 for $8.14 million. It had been hidden for up to 228 years as well.
The provenance of the Shroud IS shrouded (excuse the bad pun) in mystery... but it does have a history beyond 1356. We KNOW a shroud existed as it was listed in the inventory of the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople. We have the Sermon delivered when the Image of Edessa was brought to Constantinople in 944 in which the monk who delivered it talked about the image. We have the tradition of the Mandylion, an acheiropoieta ("made without hands") true image of Jesus, that preceded to Shroud and was most likely the Shroud itself. All of these things were revered and PROTECTED from damage except for very short, and usually violent events which they survived because of the sacrifices of believers and the risks they took to save them... including the shroud.
Yes, there are holes in the "chain of evidence". The first occurs between the Tomb and the arrival of an "acheiropoieta" image of Christ in Edessa, Turkey, as a gift reportedly from Jesus to King Akbar of Edessa. The image stays in Edessa for the next three centuries... revered and used as a palliative against attack.
The second gap occurs from the siege of Edessa in the 4th Century when the "Image of Edessa" was paraded on the city walls to invoke its protection (which apparently didn't work too well) and its finding, walled up in the city gates, during repairs after an earthquake in 525 or 544.
The Image of Edessa, resided there until 944 when it was handed over to the Emperor in Constantinople in exchange for the release of 200 Muslim POWs. There it was renamed the Mandylion but apprently later discovered to be the shroud as the Mandylion is de-emphasized in literature and the listing of the shroud appears.
The final gap in the chain of custody occurs starting in 1204 when the French Knights of the Fourth Crusade, out of boredom from long delays in sallying forth to Palestine, sack Constantinople and steal many of the relics before torching the buildings that housed them. The disappearance of the Shroud in the sack of Constantinople begins a 150 year gap in the chain of evidence.
Among those participating in the Fourth Crusade was a group called the Knights Templar, a rabidly devout group of priestly knights who would be most interested in seizing relics. In 1307, Jaques de Molay, Grand Master of the Templars was burned at the stake for "idolatry" in that the Templars were reported to be worshiping an image, and the Templars were hunted down and killed. Burned along with De Molay was the Master of the Paris Temple, one Geoffry de Charney.
The modern age of the shroud starts in 1355 in Lirey France where the Shroud turns up in the possession of one Geoffrey de Charny. There are no gaps in the chain from then on.
. . . This I tell you true, If I had the complete True Cross, the Holy Grail (probably wood and decayed by the first century), the ruble of the true Ten Commandments from Mt. Sinai, Mohammed's Saddle and Buddha's pillow, I would destroy them all. Not in the name of destroying religion, but in the name of peace and goodwill to all Men.
My, what arogance. What if GOD arranged to leave the shroud as another testament to the suffering and sacrifice of Jesus (and if it is authentic, that is exactly a description of what happened)? You claim that you would substitute GOD's judgement with YOURS as to it value and importance.
It is this very hubris that allows the Taliban to destroy ancient religious artefacts in the name of their religion.
Very well said.
Dan
Since I did a paper on the Hundred Years War and the Shroud is mentioned contemporary to the events of the Battle of Poitiers, the Shroud is often referenced in this context. My error, admittedly, is one of pre and post battle disposition, but not of time and place. The widow of de Charny petitioned the French Court for possession of the Shroud.
It means that de Charny was the most exalted of all the knights in France... and the most trusted. He also wrote the book that established the STANDARD for knightly conduct, the code of Chivalry.
Well, whoop-de-do! So, de Charny wrote books, got himself killed and allowed his King to be taken prisoner by the Black Prince. King John II of France was transported to England where he became the house guest of the English King Edward III. I presume that this incident at Poitiers begins the French tradition of surrender. After Poitiers, the Black Prince went on to win more battles in Spain. In return, "Pedro the Cruel", King of Spain, presented the Black Prince with a large ruby known as the "Black Prince Ruby". This gem is still in the position of honor on the front of the English Imperial State Crown. It would seem that de Charny's writing books on chivalry and possessing the sacred Shroud did him little good as a combat battlefield soldier.
My, what arrogance. What if GOD arranged to leave the shroud as another testament to the suffering and sacrifice of Jesus (and if it is authentic, that is exactly a description of what happened)? You claim that you would substitute GOD's judgement with YOURS as to it value and importance.
"What if GOD..." What if, indeed? Absent any other knowledge, I would use my judgement. Were God to desire a different disposition of these relics, I would hope He would instruct me. As it is however, I think the 2nd. Commandment of the Decalogue: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them;", is the instruction that guides my judgement.
It is this very hubris that allows the Taliban to destroy ancient religious artifacts in the name of their religion.
Perhaps, but that is your perception and interpretation. Any act I would do would be in private, unknown, and the fact carried to my grave, not a public demonstration of terrorist value as did the Taliban. As well, the statues of Buddha were known to be man made and not considered to be supernaturally manufactured holy relics. Furthermore, to reference me to the Taliban is to miss the entire point. They destroyed icons in order to promote Islam. I would destroy ANY relic of ANY religion that I knew (somehow) for a fact was authentic. I would not promote Christianity by destroying Mohammed's Saddle while proffering to the public, the True Cross. I would destroy them both. Now remember, this presumes the artifacts are, indeed, "real". That means that there is a Jahveh (Yahweh), Christ and an Allah. The same Great Spirit by many names. To promote one over the other would be disingenuous. Destroying both Cross and Saddle would be the chivalrous thing to do.
If you can't see the difference, one wonders how you would react to any proven facts about the Turin Shroud. Would you go mad and commit suicide were it proven beyond doubt to be a fake? Would you murder those who proved it to be fake? More to the point, would you murder those who refused to accept its authenticity should it be proved "real"? Would you forsake your family and become a monk were it proven real? Or would you bid on e-Bay for a grilled cheese sandwich that had the image of The Virgin burned onto the bread? Just how emotionally invested are you in this dubious artifact? The question is rhetorical and I don't need to know the answer. Perhaps you and others do.
Therefore, I stand by the judgement that nothing from Heaven can be possessed on earth. It is against God's will as expressed in the Second Commandment.