Kal Tec .32 defender.
And it is unbelieveably accurate for it's size.
Posted on 01/29/2005 3:57:06 PM PST by cicero's_son
I'm hoping for some good advice from fellow Freepers about which handgun to purchase.
I'm a novice shooter (with handguns at least). Don't really know very much about them. I've applied for a conceal carry permit in Indiana, and I'm signed up for the next NRA basic education classes at the local range.
This will be my first (and possibly only) small sidearm purchase. I don't want or need anything too heavy-duty. Just a reliable, effective, easy to use, accurate pistol for personal and home defense.
I'm leaning toward a Glock 9mm, but I understand there is a wide divergence of opinion on them.
What say you?
Have you fired a .40 S&W ?
Likely you were. The mass of the Glock changes considerably as you empty the magazine. Towards the end of the mag if you "limp wrist" the weapon it will jam as the weapon no longer has the mass to hold it in place while the action cycles. You have to hold it solidly in an iron grip. I had similar problems when I first got mine till I understood what was needed. I love my Glock. Used it just the other night with the integral laser sight to whack a skunk. I favor a Hungarian copy of the Walther PPK for carry though. The Glock is too heavy, and the first rule of gunfighting is to have a gun.
regards,
Ouch. That smarts.
Knock-down is a MYTH.
The 45 has a bigger bullet and you can't argue with the bigger hole, but the the one-shot stop percentage is only 5% greater than that of the 9mm and bullet design has narrowed the gap even more.
A small, concealable and CONTROLLABLE 9mm is preferable to the big honking .45 left at home.
A glock has a very lightweight frame. The weight of your hand is part of the mass that keeps the frame still while the slide recoils to load another round. If you hold it loosly, the frame and slide both recoil together and the pistol jams.
It is a problem for some at the range, but in a desperate situation I don't think there will be any problem remembering to hold the pistol tightly enough. The problem will be in leaving permanent fingerprints swaged into the plastic..
I shoot a 1911, but since you are just starting, get a Glock or Springfield XD or a revolver. There are no safeties or other controls to remember.
Keep it simple to operate.
So9
In 3 years, a DEAD CARTRIDGE.
If you want a .45, get the real thing ;)
That makes sense to me, but again I'm a novice. Do you have a source?
A compromise pistol. Why not get a 45 that is just as easy to control and makes a real hole even if the bullet fails to expand.
So9
Well, in my shooting club a guy (an instructor, BTW) had TWO glock barrel blown and replaced at the factory. I have nothing but good things to say about CZ-75 - and it is robust enough to work with hot +P and +P+ ammo. (I pumped some 30000 rounds through mine - and the only thing I ever needed was a replacement sear). 9mm with expanding (say, Hydra-shock, or Cor-Bon) projectile loaded to +P+ should compensate for lower weight.
Kal Tec .32 defender.
And it is unbelieveably accurate for it's size.
Nope take a look at the king of knockdown ;).50 Beowulf
Here is a link that may be helpful. Read down to caliber and it shows penetration and 1 shot stopping effectiveness for each caliber and different loads for each.
http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm
I agree that the .45 has the numbers.
But, against animal/human targets, it's penetration, organ and nerve damage, and blood loss that get the kill. My 5% figure was the calculation some time ago (FBI?) of the percentage of One-Shot Stops (where the target went down with one round). The 9mm can come close to the .45 in that area. When it comes to penetration of harder targets (windows, doors, walls), bullet weight, diameter, design and velocity become more important.
I have both a Ruger GP 100 in 357 and P series in 9mm. I think Ruger is the best made handgun out there and the auto's are underrated by many except the experts.
Here are the questions I asked myself, and the answers that pointed me to the G-19 and Comp-TAC holster:
1) Why do I want a weapon? Personal security in an ever-more-dangerous world.
2) Where will I have to use that weapon? My home and elsewhere.
3) What kind of weapon do I want? It's got to be reliable, concealable, and not cost me an arm and a leg. Ammunition must be readily available and affordable; in my opinion, if you don't practice you shouldn't carry or use a weapon.
4) What caliber do I want? The largest caliber that I can shoot with accuracy. However, this must be evaluated against the number of bullets I can carry. Also, if my use of a pistol includes concealed carry, then the weapon must be concealable and comfortable. In researching "comfort", I ran into a lot of posts indicating that, for my size frame (6', 180 pounds), the G-19 was a lot more comfortable and generated less back pain than larger calibers. (Note: I also considered a .380, but the practice ammunition was significantly more expensive, and I intended to make "practice" a high priority.)
5) What's more important, accuracy or "stopping power"? In research at http://www.ammolab.com and http://www.tacticalforums.com I found that the 1155 fps velocity of the 124-grain Speer 9mm's seemed to deliver the same amount of energy as most .45 rounds. In test firing, I found that I could reliably place 8 out of 10 rounds in a 6" bullseye at 7 yards with the 9mm, but only 3 out of 10 with the .45. (Note: since then, I've improved for both calibers... but that was back then... ). I determined that it was more important to hit the target with 8 rounds than miss it with 7).
6) What do other firearm users prefer? I found that most police units employ the 9mm (either SiG or Glock). "If it's good enough for the police, it's good enough for me." I thought.
Putting the data together, and mulling it around a bit, I decided to get the Glock G-19:
1) It's very concealable.
2) It's relatively accurate. While the SIG has a better reputation for accuracy, that accuracy comes at the cost of maintainability and durability.
3) It's the most easily-maintained pistol in 9mm. It's also incredibly durable... bury 'em in sand, freeze 'em in ice... they fire a bullet. However, the loose tolerances make the pistol slightly less accurate.
4) Speer Gold Dots and Remington Golden Sabers have excellent fps ratings, and provide serious cavity damage in gel block tests ... without over-penetration.
5) Practice ammunition is cheap. You can get 100 rounds of Winchester 9mm for $10.96 at Wal-Mart.
6) The G-19 cost me $415. A SIG was going to run $725.
Oh, and as far as accuracy goes, here are a couple of targets shot at a range of 10 yards (30 days and 600 rounds after I purchased my G-19). The diameter of the "black" on the top target is 5 1/2 inches.
I decided that a Comp-TAC holster was my choice, and have been very pleased with it (http://www.comp-tac.com/).
I also purchased a Gunvault safe... I don't want to come home some night and find that I've been burglarized, or that my kids had a friend over and someone got to "playing" with my weapon and killed himself.
Getting a weapon is only the beginning... you will need to thoroughly understand the laws in your state. I've appended an email I sent my son before he attended an NRA course; while the laws for your state will vary, you'll need to understand not only what you can do, but what you should or should not do.
Good Luck!
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Matt, it is absolutely essential that you understand this portion of the New Hampshire law before Saturday’s class.
-Dad
627:4 Physical Force in Defense of a Person. -
I. A person is justified in using non-deadly force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful, non-deadly force by such other person, and he may use a degree of such force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose. However, such force is not justifiable if:
(a) With a purpose to cause physical harm to another person, he provoked the use of unlawful, non-deadly force by such other person; or
(b) He was the initial aggressor, unless after such aggression he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to such other person his intent to do so, but the latter notwithstanding continues the use or threat of unlawful, non-deadly force; or
(c) The force involved was the product of a combat by agreement not authorized by law.
II. A person is justified in using deadly force upon another person when he reasonably believes that such other person:
(a) Is about to use unlawful, deadly force against the actor or a third person;
(b) Is likely to use any unlawful force against a person present while committing or attempting to commit a burglary;
(c) Is committing or about to commit kidnapping or a forcible sex offense; or
(d) Is likely to use any unlawful force in the commission of a felony against the actor within such actor's dwelling or its curtilage.
III. A person is not justified in using deadly force on another to defend himself or a third person from deadly force by the other if he knows that he and the third person can, with complete safety:
(a) Retreat from the encounter, except that he is not required to retreat if he is within his dwelling or its curtilage and was not the initial aggressor; or
(b) Surrender property to a person asserting a claim of right thereto; or
(c) Comply with a demand that he abstain from performing an act which he is not obliged to perform; nor is the use of deadly force justifiable when, with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily harm, the actor has provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter.
(d) If he is a law enforcement officer or a private person assisting him at his direction and was acting pursuant to RSA 627:5, he need not retreat.
Source. 1971, 518:1. 1981, 347:1, 2, eff. Aug. 16, 1981.
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Summary:
If you start the fight, you surrender your right to defend yourself with deadly force.
If you can retreat, and do so safely, you surrender your right to use deadly force. (Note: this does not apply to your own home IF you didn’t provoke a fight that ends up in you home. If you pick a fight with someone in the street and they follow you inside your house, you could well be considered the aggressor. In that situation, if you use deadly force, you could be convicted of manslaughter or murder).
If you have possession of someone else’s property, and they are asserting a claim to it, you may not use deadly force to retain the property.
If you are asked to refrain from conduct that you are not legally required to perform (e.g., asked to “keep the noise down!”), you surrender your right to use deadly force, even if provoked in an argumentative manner.
Guidelines: Be Polite. Avoid Confrontation. Don’t go STUPID places, with STUPID people, or do STUPID things.
(In general, these guidelines work for all aspects of life, with our without a weapon on your body)
Love,
Dad
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