The Neverending Story

Free Republic | 3/24/01 | The NES Crew

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

After a nine month hiatus, The Neverending Story, the granddaddy of daily threads, has returned to Free Republic. Originally begun on March 24, 2001, as a religious discussion thread, the NES evolved over time into a daily thread spanning a wide variety of topics. The new and improved Neverending Story will feature conversation on religion, politics, culture, current events, business, sports, family, hobbies, general fellowship and more. We welcome you to hang your hat in our little corner of FR. We ask you to abide by the FR posting rules and, even in the midst of serious debate, to keep the discussion friendly and respectful. Those who wish to "duke it out" are asked to take it over to the Smoky Backroom. I placed this thread in "General/Chat" for a reason, so play nice and have fun! :o)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Still doesn't really explain who, when or how many.

True.

:)

BigMack

[OLD REGGIE]

To recap: you made the (eye-popping) claim that "tundra" is only "tundra" during the season of the year when the surface is thawed. If you disagree with my understanding of your position (as expressed in #374), please let me know. I've provided ample evidence that your definition of "tundra" is askew.

To recap: I gave up! All I ask is for you to prove that Green Bay has permafrost - get that - PERMAFROST. After all, without permafrost there can be no tundra.

I was 0 for 2 on my picks this weekend. I picked the Colts and Jets.

Now I pick the Pat's to go all the way.

[OLD REGGIE]

I think my support of the Colts today proved my value. I'll open the bidding now for which of you can bribe me to root for the other team. ;o)

I can't thank you enough for your support. I'm with Dave in requesting your support of the Steelers.

Your blatant demand for a bribe is wasted. :-)

[OLD REGGIE]

Never mine that, what did you do to the Jets? ;-)

Heinz Field remains in folklore as The Place Where Kickers Come to Die.

It's almost unbelievable how he missed two rather routine field goals.

I predict Big Ben will suffer at the hands of the Patriots.

It is as it should be: The two best teams for the AFC Championship.

I was rather impressed with the Ravens though I think either the Pat's or Steelers could handle him

I know the Pat's can handle him.

Pats 27.

Steelers 10.

[OLD REGGIE]

Almah being better-translated as "maiden" than "virgin" doesn't change the fact that Mary was, is and will ever be a Virgin.

So say a bunch of "infallible" men. How do we know they are infallible? Because they say so!

[CindyDawg]

That's good. What did you think about the article?

[CindyDawg]

I decided to take the Baptist doctrine class after I found out that it is a study from scripture. After I'm done with my material you are welcome to it if you still are researching the bishop/pastor thing.

[OLD REGGIE]

AMEN, to that Dave:)

Becky

So you buy into the "Perpetual Virgin" dogma? Mary had no other children?

Do you also accept the Bodily Assumption?

[SoothingDave]

It's almost unbelievable how he missed two rather routine field goals.

Not exactly "routine." No visiting kicker has ever made a FG longer than 44 yards in Heinz Field. So missing the 47-yarder into the wind is undestandable. Missing the second one was just Brien psyching himself out. He didn't want to overcompensate, so he undercompensated. And he admitted he tried to hit it harder, which threw off his aim.

That, and the football gods were smiling.

I predict Big Ben will suffer at the hands of the Patriots.

I think whoever's linebackers have the better day will win. That and whoever avoids giving up the "big play."

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Okay, so what if it says "maiden" or "young women"...what's the chance IN CONTEXT that it could be speaking of a woman that isn't a virgin???

Grasping at straws to consider anything else.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

~sigh~ am I really going to get into these endless discussions....considering....uh, no, but thanks:)

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Oh, well:), give me the scripture reference again where "alma" comes into question...isn't it in Isaiah?

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I found it.

No I do not believe Mary was a perpetual virgin.

Mary had other children, the bible says so.

No she was not assumed bodily into heaven, the bible never says that.

The verse says the Lord will give a SIGN...that sign was Mary was a virgin WHEN she conceived Christ, that is what the bible says. How would it be a sign if she wasn't?

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Thanks for the offer, but I've already gotten the Baptist spin on it:)

Becky

[SoothingDave]

What did you think about the article?

Which one?

SD

[CindyDawg]

VATICAN CITY, Jan. 17 — The Vatican has issued what some Jewish scholars are calling an important document that explicitly says, "The Jewish wait for the Messiah is not in vain." The scholarly work, effectively a rejection of and apology for the way some Christians have viewed the Old Testament, was signed by the pope's theologian, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. The document says Jews and Christians in fact share the wait for the Messiah, though Jews are waiting for the first coming, and Christians for the second. "The difference consists in the fact that for us, he who will come will have the same traits of that Jesus who has already come," wrote Cardinal Ratzinger, the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. At least one Jewish scholar said the new document is a marked departure from "Dominus Iesus," a study of the redemptive role of Jesus that was released last year in Cardinal Ratzinger's name and that fanned disputes between Catholic and Jewish scholars. The new document also says Catholics must regard the Old Testament as "retaining all of its value, not just as literature, but its moral value," said Joaquín Navarro-Valls, the pope's spokesman. "You cannot say, `Now that Jesus has come, it becomes a second-rate document.' " "The expectancy of the Messiah was in the Old Testament," he went on, "and if the Old Testament keeps its value, then it keeps that as a value, too. It says you cannot just say all the Jews are wrong and we are right." Asked whether that could be taken to mean that the Messiah may or may not have come, Dr. Navarro- Valls said no. "It means it would be wrong for a Catholic to wait for the Messiah, but not for a Jew," he said. The document, the result of years of work by the Pontifical Biblical Commission, goes on to apologize for the fact that certain New Testament passages that criticize the Pharisees, for example, had been used to justify anti-Semitism. Everything in the report is now considered part of official church doctrine, Dr. Navarro-Valls said. The Rev. Albert Vanhoye, a Jesuit scholar who worked on the commission, said the project sees Scripture as a link between Christians and Jews, and the New Testament as a continuation of the Old, though divergent in obvious ways. A number of Jewish scholars and leaders said they were pleased but stunned and would have to take some time to digest fully the complicated, 210-page study, published in French and Italian. "This is something altogether new, especially compared with the earlier document from Ratzinger that was so controversial," said Rabbi Alberto Piattelli, a professor and leader of the Jewish community in Rome. "This latest declaration is a step forward" in closing the wounds opened by that earlier document, Rabbi Piattelli said. "It recognizes the value of the Jewish position regarding the wait for the Messiah, changes the whole exegesis of biblical studies and restores our biblical passages to their original meaning. I was surprised." Prof. Michael R. Marrus, dean of graduate studies at the University of Toronto, who specializes in the history of the Holocaust, was also complimentary. Professor Marrus was among the Jewish members of a panel studying the Vatican's role in the Holocaust, but the group was disbanded after disputes between Catholic and Jewish scholars. "This is important," he said, "and all the more so because it comes from Cardinal Ratzinger, who is not considered the most liberal spokesman for the church. It represents real and remarkable progress on the Catholic-Jewish front," even as the dispute over the Catholic Church's wartime history seems to be hardening, he added. At least initially, the only voices of dissent were on the Catholic side, where some traditionalists said they felt the church under Pope John Paul II had done altogether too much apologizing already. Vittorio Messori, a Catholic writer and commentator, said he respects the pope but "his apologies leave me perplexed." "He's inspired and has his reasons," Mr. Messori said, "but what's dangerous in these apologies is that he seems to say the church itself has been wrong in its teaching," rather than just some within the church. The oddest thing about the document from the Jewish perspective is that it was so quietly released. It has been in bookstores here since November, but as a small book titled "The Jewish People and the Holy Scriptures in the Christian Bible," it drew no notice until the Italian news agency ANSA printed a small report on it Wednesday. Tullia Zevi, a longtime Jewish community leader and commentator here, said: "The widespread opinion on the document is that it's trying to question the validity of past attitudes of the church, and seems an attempt to move us closer to together. So why was such an important document kept secret?" One possibility, she said, was that the church was trying to avoid criticism within its own ranks. Vatican officials, however, say it was not announced because it was seen mainly as a theological study intended for other theologians. The Vatican is governed by tradition and habit, and is thus quite able to keep silent about even important new policies. In December, for example, word emerged without fanfare of new rules on the treatment of priests accused of pedophilia. Andrea Riccardi, the founder of the Sant'Egidio Community, a left- leaning Catholic group with a history of mediating international conflicts and promoting religious dialogue, said he was most impressed by the depth of the new document. "This should be reassuring" to Jews, he said, "especially because these last years have not been easy." He said the document in no way backtracks from "Dominus Iesus" ("The Lord Jesus"), but does represent a significant shift. "In the past, we've talked about an ancient, common heritage," he said. "But now, for the first time, we're talking about our future waiting for the Messiah and the end of time." Waiting together? "No," Mr. Riccardi said. "But waiting close to each other."

You know I disagree with some of your doctrine (as you do mine). All religions should reach out to the Jews IMO but shouldn't we stand firm on what we believe unless there is strong scripture to indicate otherwise? I'm not flaming. Just curious. Yall have a lot of faith in man. I don't.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Oh, but I would be interested in what YOU think after you go thru that study on that topic.

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

Okay, so what if it says "maiden" or "young women"...what's the chance IN CONTEXT that it could be speaking of a woman that isn't a virgin???

Grasping at straws to consider anything else.

Becky

No grasping. It simply doesn't say she was a virgin. Christians believe that because they simply can't imagine choosing an "ordinary" woman to be the mother of His son.

You didn't respond whether you believe in the Perpetual Virginity and/or the Bodily Assumption.

[OLD REGGIE]

Okay, so what if it says "maiden" or "young women"...what's the chance IN CONTEXT that it could be speaking of a woman that isn't a virgin???

Grasping at straws to consider anything else.

Becky

No grasping. It simply doesn't say she was a virgin. Christians believe that because they simply can't imagine choosing an "ordinary" woman to be the mother of His son.

You didn't respond whether you believe in the Perpetual Virginity and/or the Bodily Assumption.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

It simply doesn't say she was a virgin.

No, but it does say a SIGN will be given. What's the sign in your opinion?

Becky