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The Neverending Story
Free Republic | 3/24/01 | The NES Crew

Posted on 01/11/2005 6:18:33 PM PST by malakhi

The Neverending Story

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

After a nine month hiatus, The Neverending Story, the granddaddy of daily threads, has returned to Free Republic. Originally begun on March 24, 2001, as a religious discussion thread, the NES evolved over time into a daily thread spanning a wide variety of topics. The new and improved Neverending Story will feature conversation on religion, politics, culture, current events, business, sports, family, hobbies, general fellowship and more. We welcome you to hang your hat in our little corner of FR. We ask you to abide by the FR posting rules and, even in the midst of serious debate, to keep the discussion friendly and respectful. Those who wish to "duke it out" are asked to take it over to the Smoky Backroom. I placed this thread in "General/Chat" for a reason, so play nice and have fun! :o)


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To: SoothingDave
Do you think President Bush can or will order flags at half-mast? I don't know what the protocol is. Can such be done for prominent heads of state?

It can be ordered by Presidential proclamation. This was done at the beginning of January to honor the victims of the tsunami. So it can, and I'd guess it will, be done for the Pope.

2,261 posted on 04/01/2005 12:16:53 PM PST by malakhi
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To: SoothingDave
Join the real debate over DST.

Stupid debate.
2,262 posted on 04/01/2005 1:10:15 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: malakhi; SoothingDave

Still no official announcement from the Vatican except "his conditioning is worsening".


2,263 posted on 04/01/2005 1:20:45 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: malakhi
It is possible that the Schindler's attorneys botched their filing. Or, perhaps they just didn't have much to work with. But reading the rulings, there is no question that these were conservative judicial decisions.

Hello. Hope all is well.

In doing some initial reading, it looks like the Schindler's attorney's may have made some critical errors early on in this process. There was some discussion on anotehr thread about how the attorneys did not even mention in one pleading the bill passed out of Congress and signed by the President, and the benefits in that bill for Terri.

2,264 posted on 04/01/2005 1:24:02 PM PST by Fury
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To: Fury
What irritates me is the way the legislators (both in Florida and in Congress) want to point the finger at the judiciary. They don't want to be accountable themselves for passing flawed legislation. So they deliberately make things vague, and leave it up to the courts to sort out. The Americans with Disabilities Act is a classic example of this. The legislature gets to take credit for doing something, and then deny responsibility for what the courts make of it. Nice trick, if you can get away with it.

I think Congress knew very well that, under existing law, it was unlikely the court was going to grant temporary injunctive relief.

Regarding the Schindler's counsel, I looked at the motion they filed with the 11th Circuit on March 21, 2005, and it was a motion for a temporary restraining order. All those posting that the court violated the will of Congress overlook the fact that the motion, and the ruling, pertained to injunctive relief, rather than to the actual de novo review.

2,265 posted on 04/01/2005 1:31:36 PM PST by malakhi
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To: malakhi
think Congress knew very well that, under existing law, it was unlikely the court was going to grant temporary injunctive relief. Regarding the Schindler's counsel, I looked at the motion they filed with the 11th Circuit on March 21, 2005, and it was a motion for a temporary restraining order. All those posting that the court violated the will of Congress overlook the fact that the motion, and the ruling, pertained to injunctive relief, rather than to the actual de novo review.

Granted, I'm a big dummy about these things, but why would the motion for the order not be related to a motion under the new law for a de novo?

It seems to make sense in simple English that if a new law which applies to my client makes it possible for me to request a new hearing of the facts of the case, that a temporary order preventing my client from being killed would be issued forthwith.

SD

2,266 posted on 04/01/2005 1:43:53 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: malakhi
Furthermore, it seems that if injunctive relief is denied because "you aren't likely to win" this is prejudicial and flies in the face of the entire idea of a de novo review.

SD

2,267 posted on 04/01/2005 1:54:47 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
It seems to make sense in simple English that if a new law which applies to my client makes it possible for me to request a new hearing of the facts of the case, that a temporary order preventing my client from being killed would be issued forthwith.

There is existing law governing temporary injunctive relief.

In the original draft of the bill, Congress included language which would have mandated the court issue a temporary restraining order.

Because this would have changed existing law pertaining to injunctions, in addition to impinging upon the court's constitutional prerogatives to act, the language was changed to "may issue".

The final draft stripped that paragraph from the bill entirely.

When, in debate on the Senate floor, Senator Frist was asked if the removal of this language meant that existing law governing injunctive relief applied, he said "yes".

Now, existing law governing temporary injunctive relief requires that the matter in question pass four tests. One of the tests is "irreparable injury". But that is only one of the tests. In fact, Judge Whittemore found that the Schindler's attorney had demonstrated three out of the four tests. However, in the matter of "substantial likelihood of success on the merits", Whittemore ruled that, based upon the arguments presented by the Schindler's attorneys, when reviewed from the standpoint of statutory and case law, they had NOT met this factor. Consequently, the motion for a temporary restaining order was denied.

Legally, the Schindlers could still proceed with a petition for a de novo review. From a practical standpoint, however, the upholding of Whittemore's decision by the three judge panel, the en banc denial by the 11th Circuit of their appeal, and the refusal of the Supreme Court to hear the case, there simply was insufficient time for action to proceed.

2,268 posted on 04/01/2005 2:14:09 PM PST by malakhi
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To: malakhi
Still sounds like a Catch-22 to me. Yes, Congress could have mandated temporary relief, but that would likely be too broad and be struck down (at some point).

If the existing law says that a judge basically has to pre-decide the case before him before he can issue temporary restraint, then the law is stupid.

SD

2,269 posted on 04/01/2005 2:22:16 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Furthermore, it seems that if injunctive relief is denied because "you aren't likely to win" this is prejudicial and flies in the face of the entire idea of a de novo review.

Having read the arguments presented by the Schindler's attorneys, Whittemore's response, and the review of his ruling by the three judge panel, it seems pretty clear to me that their arguments were not strong.

The law on granting injunctive relief is established and settled. Congress knew the ramifications of the law when they passed the private bill for Terri. They deliberately did not include a clause mandating temporary injunctive relief. They did so knowing that the court was likely to turn down such a motion on the basis of "likelihood of success".

Part of the problem is that Congress waited so long to act. One of the purposes of a temporary restraining order is to "maintain the status quo". In this case, the status quo was that the feeding tube was already removed. So the Schindlers were, in effect, asking that the situation be returned to status quo ante.

The plaintiffs alleged five constitutional and statutory claims as the basis for "likelihood of success". A good part of their argument was rehashing their old complaints against Judge Greer.

2,270 posted on 04/01/2005 2:27:52 PM PST by malakhi
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To: SoothingDave
If the existing law says that a judge basically has to pre-decide the case before him before he can issue temporary restraint, then the law is stupid.

There are at least two parties involved in any motion for temporary injunctive relief. The rights of each of the parties must be considered. If there were no "likelihood of success" test, then it would be far easier for people to file frivolous motions.

2,271 posted on 04/01/2005 2:31:03 PM PST by malakhi
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To: malakhi
Well, thanks for doing the reading and all. I definitely think overturning the status quo was a big problem. I just can't decide if Congress is spineless or cynical or both.

Anyway, It's about to start raining and not let up until Sunday afternoon. Have a good weekend.

SD

2,272 posted on 04/01/2005 2:33:50 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: malakhi
If there were no "likelihood of success" test, then it would be far easier for people to file frivolous motions.

Understood. Judges are allowed to summarily dismiss ridiculous claims. But I don't agree that, given the action put forth to change jurisdictions and allow for a whole new hearing of the facts and the law, that it is so easy to decide.

SD

2,273 posted on 04/01/2005 2:36:03 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
I just can't decide if Congress is spineless or cynical or both.

Oh, both. Without question.

It's about to start raining and not let up until Sunday afternoon.

Bummer. We had that Wednesday night and Thursday morning. We're looking pretty good for the weekend, though. Mostly sunny and highs in the 50s.

Have a good one!

2,274 posted on 04/01/2005 2:43:54 PM PST by malakhi
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To: SoothingDave
But I don't agree that, given the action put forth to change jurisdictions and allow for a whole new hearing of the facts and the law, that it is so easy to decide.

I think it would have helped them demonstrate "likelihood of success" had they actually included the new facts they planned to present, rather than rehashing the same complaints about Greer.

2,275 posted on 04/01/2005 2:45:19 PM PST by malakhi
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To: malakhi
I think it would have helped them demonstrate "likelihood of success" had they actually included the new facts they planned to present, rather than rehashing the same complaints about Greer.

I am jumping into waters over my head, most likely, but they weren't necessarily going to present "new facts," correct? The point of the legislation was to have a new hearing for the "old facts." Thanks for the research on the case, malakhi, your synopsis helped me a lot.

2,276 posted on 04/02/2005 10:07:36 AM PST by the808bass
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To: the808bass
They should have presented something other than a rehash of their old complaints about Greer.
2,277 posted on 04/02/2005 6:55:34 PM PST by malakhi
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To: SoothingDave; IMRight; Fury; All

Rest in peace, Karol Wojtyla.

2,278 posted on 04/02/2005 6:56:20 PM PST by malakhi
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To: malakhi
Rest in peace, Karol Wojtyla.

I echo those sentiments. Pretty decent guy really. I respect him for putting that piece of paper in the wailing wall apologizing for Christian crimes against Jews. Too bad most of his followers decline to follow suit. You never hear the slightest hint of contrition here on the FR.

2,279 posted on 04/02/2005 8:15:31 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant (l)
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To: SoothingDave
President Bush Orders Flags Flown at Half Staff in Honor of Pope John Paul II (Text)
2,280 posted on 04/02/2005 8:45:16 PM PST by malakhi
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