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The Neverending Story
Free Republic | 3/24/01 | The NES Crew

Posted on 01/11/2005 6:18:33 PM PST by malakhi

The Neverending Story

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

After a nine month hiatus, The Neverending Story, the granddaddy of daily threads, has returned to Free Republic. Originally begun on March 24, 2001, as a religious discussion thread, the NES evolved over time into a daily thread spanning a wide variety of topics. The new and improved Neverending Story will feature conversation on religion, politics, culture, current events, business, sports, family, hobbies, general fellowship and more. We welcome you to hang your hat in our little corner of FR. We ask you to abide by the FR posting rules and, even in the midst of serious debate, to keep the discussion friendly and respectful. Those who wish to "duke it out" are asked to take it over to the Smoky Backroom. I placed this thread in "General/Chat" for a reason, so play nice and have fun! :o)


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To: ET(end tyranny)
Is your belief system devoid of mystery?

YHWH tells people in Deuteronomy that they are given a 'choice' between LIFE or DEATH. YHWH then tells how to attain LIFE and how to save one's soul alive in Ezekiel. No mystery there. Anything else is superfluous. That mystery crap is used by the upper echelon to make themselves feel superior.

Is that a "yes"?

There is nothing "mysterious" in your beliefs?

Perhaps you need to define "mystery"? What do you think it means, besides "crap" used by an "upper echelon"?

SD

1,581 posted on 02/15/2005 1:39:17 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Is there no "mystery" to anything you believe?

Of course there is. I believe we must relieve ourselves of solid waste. If we don't we die dead as a doornail.

It is a mystery to me why we were made this way.

1,582 posted on 02/15/2005 1:42:33 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
The original intent of my comment wasn't to inquire about whether or not religions possess mysteries.

Maybe not, but to make snide remarks about "mysteries" leads to this obviosu question. Care to answer it?

The point was to ask how one defines a certain doctrine as a mystery and then chastises another for not using logic and reason to understand it.

It helps to understand what is meant by a mystery. I've explained it fully enough for the common man to understand. It is something revealed to us that our natural reason would never come to conclude. Our natural reason can help us to contemplate and understand that which has been revealed.

Our natural reason can also let us know when something goes against what has been revealed. We can never know fully what the mystery means, or understand it completely. But we can know when one is wrong. It is one thing to not fully understand matter or particle physics. It is quite another, because of this human limitation, to claim the moon is made of cheese.

SD

1,583 posted on 02/15/2005 1:43:38 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Is there no "mystery" to anything you believe?

Of course there is. I believe we must relieve ourselves of solid waste. If we don't we die dead as a doornail.

It is a mystery to me why we were made this way.

1,584 posted on 02/15/2005 1:43:39 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: SoothingDave

The biggest mystery would be how many changes the christian writers of the 2nd and 3rd centuries made to the Hebrew texts.

Or perhaps the mystery of why the First New Testament, written circa 150 CE didn't mention any virgin birth, family history or resurrection? Why leave out these two very important pieces, unless of course, they hadn't been written into the gospels, yet?


1,585 posted on 02/15/2005 1:50:33 PM PST by ET(end tyranny) (Isa:59:20-And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob....)
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To: ET(end tyranny)
Is that a "yes" to my question? Or am I supposed to contemplate the mystery of why you can't answer it directly?

SD

1,586 posted on 02/15/2005 1:54:39 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Maybe not, but to make snide remarks about "mysteries" leads to this obviosu question. Care to answer it?

Naw. This common man possesses only has natural reason. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. I'll wait for the day when I can be counted among the excluse and have it revealed to me.

1,587 posted on 02/15/2005 1:55:35 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: SoothingDave

exclusive not excluse


1,588 posted on 02/15/2005 1:56:29 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: SoothingDave

I'll take your non response to 1585 as an admission that there is indeed a mystery about the missing virgin birth and resurrection MYTHS in the First New Testament. :)


1,589 posted on 02/15/2005 1:56:37 PM PST by ET(end tyranny) (Isa:59:20-And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob....)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

I thought you just merged exclusive recluse. ;)


1,590 posted on 02/15/2005 1:58:03 PM PST by ET(end tyranny) (Isa:59:20-And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob....)
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To: ET(end tyranny)

:-)


1,591 posted on 02/15/2005 2:03:28 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
These aren't directed just to you. Just some thoughts/questions.

Why the need for a New Testament anyway since salvation was already available to the Jew and Gentile within Judaism in their respective Covenants with God?

Was the First New Testament later altered, deleted, and parts invented to counter the earliest religious beliefs of the Jewish and Gentile Gnostics by Rome in the early second and later centuries?

Who found it necessary to respond to this "FIRST" New Testament with a "SECOND" New Testament which contradicted and corrected this "first" one in many places?

Did others follow the trend of adding to and futher correcting the first New Testament theologically?

What was the motives of the writers of the "SECOND" New Testaments and where did these other books come from which were not previously available to the first collector?

1,592 posted on 02/15/2005 2:15:39 PM PST by ET(end tyranny) (Isa:59:20-And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob....)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
This common man possesses only has natural reason.

I shudder to think that is the case. If you only thought about what you were saying.

Are you also denying that you benefit from any Divine Revelation?

SD

1,593 posted on 02/15/2005 2:47:13 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: ET(end tyranny)
I'll take your non response to 1585 as an admission that there is indeed a mystery about the missing virgin birth and resurrection MYTHS in the First New Testament. :)

I'd be glad to engage you in a conversation as soon as you decide that that is what you want to do. I have a still-unanswered question on the table.

Is there no mystery in your belief system? What do you think "mystery" means?

As soon as these are answered, we can procede.

SD

1,594 posted on 02/15/2005 2:48:46 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: OLD REGGIE
I'll consider you the expert on solid waste then.

SD

1,595 posted on 02/15/2005 2:49:32 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
I already answered you, you just didn't like my answer.

I have posted several questions that remain unanswered.

1,596 posted on 02/15/2005 2:58:16 PM PST by ET(end tyranny) (Isa:59:20-And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob....)
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To: SoothingDave

mystery.
mys·ter·y1 Audio pronunciation of mystery ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mst-r)
n. pl. mys·ter·ies

1. One that is not fully understood or that baffles or eludes the understanding; an enigma: How he got in is a mystery.
2. One whose identity is unknown and who arouses curiosity: The woman in the photograph is a mystery.
3. A mysterious character or quality: a landscape with mystery and charm.
4. A work of fiction, a drama, or a film dealing with a puzzling crime.
5. The skills, lore, or practices that are peculiar to a particular activity or group and are regarded as the special province of initiates. Often used in the plural: the mysteries of Freemasonry; the mysteries of cooking game.
6. A religious truth that is incomprehensible to reason and knowable only through divine revelation.
7.
1. An incident from the life of Jesus, especially the Incarnation, Passion, Crucifixion, or Resurrection, of particular importance for redemption.
2. One of the 15 incidents from the lives of Jesus or the Blessed Virgin Mary, such as the Annunciation or the Ascension, serving in Roman Catholicism as the subject of meditation during recitation of the rosary.
8.
1. also Mystery One of the sacraments, especially the Eucharist.
2. mysteries The consecrated elements of the Eucharist.
9.
1. A religious cult practicing secret rites to which only initiates are admitted.
2. A secret rite of such a cult.


1,597 posted on 02/15/2005 3:00:19 PM PST by ET(end tyranny) (Isa:59:20-And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob....)
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To: SoothingDave

Juch checked and yep, I already answered you.

To: SoothingDave
YHWH tells people in Deuteronomy that they are given a 'choice' between LIFE or DEATH. YHWH then tells how to attain LIFE and how to save one's soul alive in Ezekiel. No mystery there.

Anything else is superfluous.

That mystery crap is used by the upper echelon to make themselves feel superior.
1,579 posted on 02/15/2005 4:29:14 PM EST by ET(end tyranny) (Isa:59:20-And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob....)

Is there anything more important than salvation?

Ecclesiastes 12
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.


1,598 posted on 02/15/2005 3:38:01 PM PST by ET(end tyranny) (Isa:59:20-And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob....)
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To: SoothingDave

Jumpin' in a little late here. Of course there is a sense of mystery/wonder to all religion. But the mystery of the trinity is ANATHEMA to the mystery of Judaism and the Shema. So if you want to believe in the mystery of the trinity go ahead. Just don't claim it's the fullfillment of OT scripture...because it is NOT. If the mystery of the Virgin birth works for you, so be it. But don't try to tell us it's the fullfillment of OT scripture, because it is NOT. The teachings/doctrines of Constantinian Christianity are ANATHEMA to the faith of Rabbi Jesus.

Also, using "it's a mystery" as an explanation for doctrine that just doesn't match up is a convenient cop out. You have no real explanation to rationalize "THREE = ONE" ...so you say it's "a mystery". Heck, why not say there are 4 persons in One....The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost...and The New Testament. The New Testament could be "the Living Word of God" that "speaks" to us until the second coming. God is ONE according to the Jews. He was almost 2 according to the early church...but they decided on 3 instead. They could have included the living New Testament as God's eternal word....and made him a 4 in one kinda God. Why not? Just another "mystery".

There are too many odd mysteries (virgin birth, original sin, trinity, eucharist) in Constantinian Christianity for me...that plainly do NOT work with Judaism, the faith of Jesus. What concepts in Judaism, are "mystery" to you?


1,599 posted on 02/15/2005 3:57:40 PM PST by 1 spark (see my links)
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To: SoothingDave

RE: The Trinity neither denies the Unity of God, nor does it deny the Son's role in relation to the Father.

The Trinity denies the Shema. The son's role in relation to the father is clearly a subserviant, NOT equal.


1,600 posted on 02/15/2005 4:08:21 PM PST by 1 spark (see my links)
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