Posted on 01/11/2005 6:18:33 PM PST by malakhi
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After a nine month hiatus, The Neverending Story, the granddaddy of daily threads, has returned to Free Republic. Originally begun on March 24, 2001, as a religious discussion thread, the NES evolved over time into a daily thread spanning a wide variety of topics. The new and improved Neverending Story will feature conversation on religion, politics, culture, current events, business, sports, family, hobbies, general fellowship and more. We welcome you to hang your hat in our little corner of FR. We ask you to abide by the FR posting rules and, even in the midst of serious debate, to keep the discussion friendly and respectful. Those who wish to "duke it out" are asked to take it over to the Smoky Backroom. I placed this thread in "General/Chat" for a reason, so play nice and have fun! :o)
I dreamed the Patriots won BIG! All the Globe sportswriters are picking the Pat's ranging from 3 to 10 points. My dream was so realistic that I am scrounging up every penny I can find to bet on the Pat's. I am also betting the "over".
I'm a little late getting on this morning because I have been frantically signing up with On-line Betting parlors. I have maxed out my credit cards and drained my checking account with PayPal.
I'll either have quite a bit of money tomorrow or I'll be contacting the Chelsea Old Soldiers Home to see if they have an extra bed. :-)
Another self-righteous pontificator of their interpretations of what's so, eh.
Being right and looking good are most prevalent forms of addiction we have ~ maybe. :)
I'm grateful to you for the enlightenment, BigMack!
blackie
Maybe.
18)Boys (lads), it is the last time - hour[the end of this age]. And as you have heard that Antichrist [he who will oppose Christ in the guise of Christ] is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, which confirms our belief that it is the final (the end) time.19) They went out from our number, but they did not [really] belong to us: for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But [they withdrew] that it might be plain that they all are not of us.
So an antiChrist is a false Christ...a false messiah. The real messiah is the one who restores God's kingdom on earth. Those who "went out from our number" (who left the group) IMO, were those who tried to do away with God's law and replace it with something else.
1 John 4
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
I interpret this to mean that Jesus is a human being....and to interpret it otherwise is in the spirit of anti-messiah.(Seems to support Number 23: 19...and other OT verses like it.)
Heheheh... :o)
One of the earliest 'heresies' was docetism, a Christian gnosticism which taught that, since matter was evil, Jesus must have only appeared human, but "in reality" he was only spirit. The author of this epistle, is, in my reading, condemning this belief.
Where does Jesus, in his own words in the gospels, teach the necessity of water baptism?
Matt 28-18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
BigMack
Matt 28-18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Could Jesus be God?
BigMack
But is he speaking of water baptism here?
No.
Yep.
BigMack
Yes old blind one. :)
BigMack
I also didn't go to the wrong airport because of misunderstanding which airport they said to go to!
I think you have injected things into those verses that just are not there.
Preliminary information.
weeks from the Hebrew
7620 shabuwa` shaw-boo'-ah or shabua` shaw-boo'-ah
1) seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
a) period of seven days, a week
1) Feast of Weeks
b) heptad, seven (of years
Messiah from the Hebrew
4899 mashiyach maw-shee'-akh from the root of 4886;
anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint);
specifically, the Messiah:--anointed, Messiah.
1) anointed, anointed one
a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
b) of the king of Israel
c) of the high priest of Israel
d) of Cyrus
e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings
The first thing we need is a starting point. Of the three verses given, the one that gives us the best starting point is the one pertaining to the destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary/Temple. We KNOW that this occured in 70 AD. A quick look at Daniel 9:26 tells us that AFTER the threescore and two weeks certain events happen. So, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple occur in the 70th week. Notice there is a semi colon after the words 'seven weeks', this indicates a PAUSE, end of one event. AND for threescore and two weeks (new event), it shall be built again, 'in troublous times'. There are two different anointed persons in these verses. It is "7" followed by "62" plus "1" week totaling 490 years.
70 weeks = 490 years. So, we have a time frame. Using 70 AD we need to subtract 490 years to get the other 'date' to the time frame. 420 BC + 490 years, brings us to 70 AD. The time frame is 420 BC - 70 AD.
This is where things get confusing.
Daniel 9:25 (JPS)
9:25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks;
7 weeks = 49 years
Darius II ruled from (424 BC–405 B.C.) So, the time frame begins during his reign. The starting point is 420 BC. Taking 420 BC - 49 = 371 BC.
I've used green for 371 BC to draw attention to it. It shows up later!
Look at 9:25 - from the time the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was issued (never occured in Yehoshua's era), until ONE ANNOINTED (many people and prophets are anointed ones, it says 'ONE' anointed not 'THE' anointed one) a ruler. (Yehoshua was never a ruler), it will be seven weeks.
Cyrus was anointed. Priests were anointed, like Aaron and his sons after him (Exodus 29:29), Samuel anointing Saul (1 Samuel 10), David was anointed (2 Samuel 2:4)... etc.
Daniel 9
25b and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times.
Threescore and two weeks is 62 weeks. That's 434 days. This is almost as long as the entire 70 weeks. Why did it take so long to rebuild? In fact, with a starting time frame of 420 BC, this would mean that the rebuilding went on, into the Common Era.
Herod rebuilt Jerusalem and the Temple. In 20/19 BC, the project that would give Herod historical immortality began - the refurbishing of the Temple and the expansion of the Temple Mount. It was completed in 63 AD. Taking 63 AD and subtracting 434 years brings us to 371 BC. Artaxerxes II was king of Persia from 405 BC until his death in 359 BC. The starting point for the rebuilding of Jerusalem 371 BC, falls within the reign of Artaxerxes II. Nehemiah had rebuilt the walls, but he was building a fortification wall that surrounded a Jerusalem that was not much more than a village. This is why it needed to be 'rebuilt' yet again by Herod, so that Jerusalem and the Temple could handle the large mass of people. So, while it had been built earlier, it hadn't been returned to it's orginal splendor or size until it was finished in 63 AD.
Daniel 9 (JPS)
26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9 (JPS)
26a And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more;
Notice that the verse starts out with 'and after'. The use of the word 'the' prior to 'threescore and two weeks, also shows that this time period is separate from the 7 weeks when the king, priest or civil ruler arrives. It says "and after threescore and two weeks" or sixty-two weeks and NOT sixty-nine weeks which tells us that Daniel had already envisioned at this time that the first week or seven years had aleady elapsed, therefore in the continual counting then we have only sixty-two weeks and the final week or 7 years remaining. The sixty-two weeks and seven weeks are not to be put together as one consecutive period of time but rather two different periods of time.
Hananiah, the High Priest, the father of Elazar ben Hananiah, was hunted down by the Sicarii and murdered, in 66 AD. Eleazar Ben Hananiah, the High Priest, was the very first to raise the banner of revolt against Rome when he discontinued the Temple sacrifice in honor of Caesar.
Notice when reading the verse that the time of the second anointed person being cut off and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple are timed very close to one another, however, there is a semi colon separating the two events which leads me to think that they didn't happen at the exact same time, but that there was a small gap (less than a week/7years) between the two events.
Hananiah, the High Priest, the father of Elazar ben Hananiah, was hunted down by the Sicarii and murdered, in 66 AD.
Daniel 9
26 b and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
The 'prince' that shall come, is probably Titus, since at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem, Vespasian (Titus' father) is emperor.
This would coincide with
Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Daniel 9:27 (JPS)
9:27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.'
Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. This caused the Diaspora, scattering Jews all over the world.
Titus destroys Jerusalem and the Temple, in August AD 70. (although the siege of Masada continued until AD 73) Vespasian possessed insight and the sense of how to maintain peace, too. Though the destruction of Jerusalem and the retaliation against the Jews were carried out with unnecessary severity, and restrictions were placed on some of their practices, Jews were excused from Caesar-worship.
According to Josephus' War (book II, chapter 17, section 2)
Eleazar, the son of Ananias the high priest, a very bold youth, who was at that time governor of the temple, persuaded those that officiated in the Divine service to receive no gift or sacrifice for any foreigner. And this was the true beginning of our war with the Romans; for they rejected the sacrifice of Caesar on this account; and when many of the high priests and principal men besought them not to omit the sacrifice, which it was customary for them to offer for their princes, they would not be prevailed upon.
Correct. I thought I was clear, but guess not. I think spark asked also.
Ah yes, very christian of you.
Carry on............
I think you are right on the money!
1 John 4
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
I interpret this to mean that Jesus is a human being....and to interpret it otherwise is in the spirit of anti-messiah.(Seems to support Number 23: 19...and other OT verses like it.)
Again you seem to have it right. Words have meanings.
Antichrists and their false doctrines have been around since the time of John.
1 John 4
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
flesh from the Greek
4561 sarx sarx probably from the base of 4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specially), a human being (as such):--carnal(-ly, + -ly minded), flesh(-ly).
1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
a) the body of a man
b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
1) born of natural generation
c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
1) without any suggestion of depravity
2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
There is nothing to indicate that 'flesh' is anything but, 100 percent flesh and blood, fully human
The word 'flesh' can and is translated elsewhere to indicate the carnal, or carnally minded.
1 John 4
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (100% fully human, flesh and blood) is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (100% fully human, flesh and blood) is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
antichrist from the Greek
500 antichristos an-tee'-khris-tos from 473 and 5547; an opponent of the Messiah:--antichrist.
1) the adversary of the Messiah
anti from the Greek
473 anti an-tee' a primary particle; opposite, i.e. instead or because of (rarely in addition to):--for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, correspondence, etc.
1) over against, opposite to, before
2) for, instead of, in place of (something)
a) instead of
b) for
c) for that, because
d) wherefore, for this cause
The antichrist is an:
Messiah from the Hebrew
4899 mashiyach maw-shee'-akh from the root of 4886;
anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint);
specifically, the Messiah:--anointed, Messiah.
1) anointed, anointed one
a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
b) of the king of Israel
c) of the high priest of Israel
d) of Cyrus
e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings
Now Christ from the Greek
5547 Christos khris-tos' from the root 5548;
anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:--Christ.
Christ = "anointed"
1) Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God
2) anointed
Notice what IS MISSING? In the Greek, there are no other options given.
1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
The antichrist and other antichrists were already around when John wrote his epistle.
John makes perfectly clear that MANY antichrists had gone out FROM THEM (early believers) teaching false doctrine regarding Yehoshua. These "antichrists," or usurpers of the true Messiah, were promoting doctrines that presented a Christ that was in place of or instead of the TRUE Messiah. They were teaching a "replacement" Messiah.
John was a Hebrew; therefore, it is probable that the "us" John refers to in 1 John 2:19 is likely His brethren that followed Yehoshua.
1 John 4
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
The "spirit of antichrist" is equated to a "spirit of error". CLEARLY, antichrist represents an error - false teaching - that was (and IS) being spread.
Antichrist = erroneous doctrine. Antichrist primarily represents a set of false teachings, not simply some future possible world religious/political figure, or something inserted under the skin. Those accepting the error promoted by the "spirit of error" or "spirit of antichrist" are unintentional victims of the spirit of antichrist.
So, the "antichrist" was (and is) a doctrine or set of doctrines that oppose the truth concerning The Messiah. This set of doctrines was already being spread in the latter part of the first century as false teachers betrayed the truth and went out promoting teachings that were (and are) in opposition to the TRUE Messiah.
2 John 1
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (100% fully human, flesh and blood). This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
John warns us to beware of those that do not acknowledge that Yehoshua (Jesus christ) is 100 percent, human flesh and blood.
Yep.
How can you tell?
Here's the reason I ask:
I have baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Mark 1:8)
Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
(although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples) (John 4:1-2)
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:5-6)
Considering that John 3:4 has Nicodemus asking "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?", it seems to me that, when Jesus is speaking in verse 5 about being "born of water", that he is talking about man's natural birth (being born of the flesh), that when he talks about being "born of the spirit", he is talking about being born again.
Water baptism is a symbol of repentance
John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. (Mark 1:4)
but there is nothing about water baptism, that I can see from the gospels at any rate, which speaks of it being efficacious for the remission of sin.
So why, then, would you assume that in Matthew 28:19, Jesus is talking about water baptism? Wouldn't it make more sense that he would be speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
On the other hand, if you can find for me any single verse in the gospels where Jesus personally commands water baptism, I'll cede the point.
Hi ET :)
BigMack
I think it's good to get the Sunday paper. Keeps you in touch with the world. Plus, there's the coupons.
Now getting it on Tuesday is differet. Gotta admire the spunk, though.
I was incomplete this past weekend, cause the snow kept me from going out on Saturday to get the early edition of the liberal Pittsburgh paper, which normally occupies my evening. Luckily I had the special Playoff edition from Friday which assured me that the Steeler Offensive line would make sure to control the game on Sunday.
SD
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