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GERMAN SHEPHERD ONWER'S HELP NEEDED.
SADLY ME

Posted on 01/08/2005 5:49:18 PM PST by WHATNEXT?

My beautiful German Shepherd has become more agressive lately and the time to decide his future is upon us before something happens to us or someone else.

We got him from a breeder of Schuntzhund shepherds. We took him to some training until we decided he was to inclined to be aggressive and that Schuntzhund training was not what he needed. His breeder even told us she knew he would bite (saw it in him as a puppy -- but big money made her not mention it to us apparently--that was the last time we took him to Schuntzhund -- at least 8-9 months ago). We struggled with discipline and attempting to make sure he knew who the boss was.

We decided to neuter him in the slight hope that his aggression would modify. This took away any value of him in field trials or obviously breeding. We had not purchased him to train as a champion, only for a sense of security in a rural setting and after mourning our previous Shepherd for over 2 years, to seek another wonderful Shepherd.

Over the holidays we had company staying in our home that he growled at (he knew them), he growled at both my husband and myself, and he did slightly break my husband's skin on his arm. This morning I leaned over to pet his head and he growled, I strongly reprimanded him, he continued to growl, I demanded that he get out the front door, which he did but growling all the way. He has spent the day outside. He has always growled over his food (we swore we would never tolerate that behavior). We don't think we could ever trust himk with our little grandchildren

So, we have hit the end of our road with him. He is only 19 months old, beautiful, very intelligent and has does have many pleasing personality traits. Our choices: Shepherd rescue group (we will try but most needing rescue are under different circumstances), dog pound, training (we have tried and I'm no soft touch) or euthansia.

This is so depressing.


TOPICS: Pets/Animals
KEYWORDS: aggression; dog; doggieping; dogping; germanshepherd; iwishitwasapitbull; lastresorts
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To: Duchess47

How sad.

Has anybody trained growling and aggression out of a dog?


21 posted on 01/08/2005 6:49:00 PM PST by WHATNEXT? (That's PRESIDENT BUSH (not Mr.)!!)
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To: WHATNEXT?
So, we have hit the end of our road with him.

Don't have one now but grew up with many dogs, including purebred Sheps.

When a dog shows that kind of unwarranted aggression towards the owner, it's cause to put him down, IMHO.

Strangely I've never seen this with larger breeds but only with Dachsunds and my parents' terrier-something-or-other, which became increasingly bad with young children (esp. toddlers).

It's genetics, not socialization or training.

22 posted on 01/08/2005 6:50:48 PM PST by angkor
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To: WHATNEXT?
I am sure you paid quite a bit for this dog.

If you do get rid of him and if you plan to get another dog. May I suggest you look into getting a Belgian Tervuren? - If you like Sheppard's you will adore a Belgian. Just make sure you get one from a very good breeder. Even a pet quality Belgian (with a neuter contract) will suit you fine and they love kids.

If you have never been around a Belgian Tervuren, then I suggest you visit a breeder some where in your area just to see what a great breed of dog they are.

http://www.abtc.org/
American Belgian Tervuren Club

My husband and I lost our Belgian about 2 years ago from old age. He was the most loving dog but was very protective of our property. He was trained to stay on our unfenced 5 acres of land and that was he did. Everyone that came in contact with him was impressed with him. They are extremely intelligent.
At some point in the future we plan to get another one.

I am sorry about your dog, but chances are more likely that he has some hidden illness that you are not aware of.
23 posted on 01/08/2005 6:52:20 PM PST by stlnative
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To: angkor
Yes, most aggression I have seen is in the smaller breeds, especially those you mention.

We have given him all our love and a good home -- but to no avail. He has some amazing good traits.....
24 posted on 01/08/2005 6:54:40 PM PST by WHATNEXT? (That's PRESIDENT BUSH (not Mr.)!!)
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To: WHATNEXT?; Flyer; technochick99; sinkspur; annyokie; Scott from the Left Coast; 88keys; ...
There are many here with experience in strong working dogs and some with shepherds. I hope you get some good advice.

A good schutzhund trainer, or any good, strong trainer familiar with real dogs, not some feel-good clicker trainer, ought to be the first you go to for remedial training. If you are to try to salvage this dog, ALL family members must be willing to go to the training as well, you need it as much as the dog does. You may still end up needing to euthanize him. Rescue adoption groups, unless you touch a special heart somewhere, generally can't take on aggression problems.

Ping!


25 posted on 01/08/2005 6:55:56 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: ambrose
Maybe there's a farmer you can give him to. He clearly should not be around children.

He'd be worse around livestock.

26 posted on 01/08/2005 6:57:34 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: brigette

I am familiar with Belgian Tervurens. I admire their beauty but don't know much about their personality. But, just as with our experience with shepherds one never knows (probably about any breed). I know my aunt had several little dogs and they were aggressive and bit. We always had to be on the alert.


27 posted on 01/08/2005 7:02:03 PM PST by WHATNEXT? (That's PRESIDENT BUSH (not Mr.)!!)
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To: WHATNEXT?

Our dog, an American Mastiff (from the English mastiff breeder Fredericka Wagner of Flying W Farms, has an ironclad lifetime temperament guarantee.

He was big bucks, but he is worth it. Extremely gentle. This is the most intelligent and enjoyable animal we have ever owned. He's one year old.

Here's the site with recommendations from owners:

http://www.flyingwfarms.com/amastiff/thumbs.html


28 posted on 01/08/2005 7:03:31 PM PST by Judith Anne (Thank you St. Jude for favors granted.)
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To: WHATNEXT?
Following up on my last post: ...And by recommending a Schutzhund trainer, I am certainly not recommending you do any protection work with him. But I recommend you take him to someone who works with and is not afraid of sharp, aggressive dogs, and can do real obedience training. You aren't going to be helped by an AKC obedience clicker trainer who usually works with golden retrievers and show dogs.

The guy I know well is here in Washington State, and is expensive probably, but he's a Dog God. He trains and competes worldwide with Schutzhund dogs and sells them to police departments. I'd FRMail you his contact info if you are willing to transport him to W WA.

29 posted on 01/08/2005 7:05:00 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: WHATNEXT?
Oh, Whatnext, I am so very sorry for your problem. I own and have owned several wonderful Shepherds. I will no longer own any other kind of dog. Never once has one of them growled at me or any other member of the family. I'm not sure what I'd do. I'll say whenever I've seen any dominating tendency in one of my dogs, I immediately begin giving them lots of "DOWN!" commands.

Have you read the books by the Monks of New Skete? They raise German Shepherds and we've always loosely based our training of them on their books.

I'd say it's important to make sure he understands he's at the bottom of your family pack. Please believe me that I don't say this lightly, but if you can't break him of his aggression, you've got to put him down. I'm terribly sorry.

30 posted on 01/08/2005 7:05:30 PM PST by old and tired
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To: WHATNEXT?
Return him to the breeder.

If she won't take him or gives you a hard time, report her to the local breed association, file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, etc. You might even consult with a lawyer about suing her for fraud, since she knew the dog was aggressive even as a puppy. Don't know the law in your jurisdiction, but that smells like fraud to me.

And put the dog down. You could never trust him. Life's too short and there are too many nice dogs out there to spend time and money and heartache over one that might kill or maim someone.

Before you get another dog, go around to working trials, esp. obedience, and find an honest breeder.

BTW, the policeman that does traffic Sunday morning at our church has a Belgian Tervuren. Benny is a great dog.

31 posted on 01/08/2005 7:07:53 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: NorCalRepub
As difficult as I think this will be for you, it sounds like he needs to be put down. We used to raise English Mastiffs, and they became aggressive too. It broke our hearts, but we had them put down before they had the opportunity to kill or maim someone.

Later that year the case in San Francisco where a lady was killed by a big dog in the hallway of her own apartment happened, and the owners went to prison. No dog is worth that. I don't know where you live, but I took my mastiffs to the County animal control center, and they only charged $15.00 per dog. I had a good cry in the parking lot, but I know I did the right thing.

32 posted on 01/08/2005 7:09:37 PM PST by passionfruit (passionate about my politics, and from the land of fruits and nuts)
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To: AnAmericanMother; WHATNEXT?

He bought from a Schutzhund breeder and probably should have expected the dog to be sharp. I would hope the breeder would take him back.


33 posted on 01/08/2005 7:10:12 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: old and tired

I LOVE that book by the monks of New Skete, about raising and training their shepherds. Outstanding!


34 posted on 01/08/2005 7:10:45 PM PST by Judith Anne (Thank you St. Jude for favors granted.)
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To: WHATNEXT?; NorCalRepub

I'm sorry, that was supposed to be to you.


35 posted on 01/08/2005 7:10:46 PM PST by Duchess47 ("One day I will leave this world and dream myself to Reality" Crazy Horse)
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To: Happygal

I think that was one of the hardest things I ever had to do.


36 posted on 01/08/2005 7:11:42 PM PST by Duchess47 ("One day I will leave this world and dream myself to Reality" Crazy Horse)
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To: WHATNEXT?
There's always going to be a baseline good temperament for Sheps after 100 years of breeding.

But dominant aggressiveness toward the owner is not part of that baseline.

Like I said, its genetics. Just as much a genetic flaw as bad hips, but one that can cause you big problems down the road.

Take the dog to a vet, as others have said. But this sounds way outside the bounds of desirable behavior.

You might also take a look at the AKC web site, which has an excellent database of all registered breeds and their behavioral profiles.
37 posted on 01/08/2005 7:11:50 PM PST by angkor
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To: WHATNEXT?
Has anybody trained growling and aggression out of a dog?

Abused or neglected dogs can be retrained but with dogs that are naturally aggressive I have never heard of it.

There was a book I had a few years back that had a chart that told you what signs to look for in a puppy that would tell you if he was aggressive or not. It was actually for Dobermans but I am sure there are tests for Shepards as well.

38 posted on 01/08/2005 7:14:03 PM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum europe vincendarum (V minus 6 and counting))
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To: HairOfTheDog

When we were still going to Schuntzhund and having trouble with nipping we asked a club member of long standing to help us. He said he would take him into his home (little children present) and work with him, for a price. We had walked around the track with him and he said he had seen nothing that would concern him.

We didn't do that (I really didn't think he should be around children, yet-- because he was a puppy with no sense) but did take him to a lesson with another club member that does training of Dobermans. She gave us the hand down the throat method and making sure we were dominate because our dog wanted to be very dominate.


39 posted on 01/08/2005 7:14:17 PM PST by WHATNEXT? (That's PRESIDENT BUSH (not Mr.)!!)
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To: passionfruit

Mastiffs don't invariably become aggressive, as far as I know...what is your experience? Our vet said he had never met an aggressive mastiff (he's my age--57) in his entire practice...

We had to put down an otherwise gentle Newfie that casually chewed the hind legs off a baby goat one calm Sunday morning...we got home from church, and immediately put down the goat, then the dog.


40 posted on 01/08/2005 7:15:25 PM PST by Judith Anne (Thank you St. Jude for favors granted.)
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