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Thread Four: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1332664/posts |
Posted on 12/30/2004 7:01:16 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
Free Republic has a lot of horse people that have found each other on other threads…. And since we all like to talk horses, how about a thread where it is not off-topic, but is THE topic?
This is a horse chat thread where we share ideas, ask for input from other horsemen, and talk about our riding and horse-keeping. We have a lot of different kinds of riders and horses, and a lot to share. In the previous threads we have had a great time talking through lessons, training, horse lamenesses, illnesses and pregnancies... and always sharing pictures and stories.
I always have a link to this thread on my profile page, so if you have something to say and can't find the thread in latest posts… look for it there and wake the thread up!
I also have a ping list for horse threads that are of interest, and Becky pings everyone most mornings. Let Becky (Paynoattentionmanbehindthecurtain) and/or me know if you would like to be on the ping list. As FreeRepublic is a political site, our politics and other issues will probably blend in…. There are many issues for horsemen that touch politics… land use, animal rights/abuse cases that make the news…. Legislation that might affect horse owners.
So... like the previous threads, this is intended as fun place to come and share stories, pictures, questions and chit-chat, unguided and unmoderated and that we come together here as friends. There are lots of ways of doing things and we all have our quirks, tricks and specialties that are neat to learn about.
I'm no lunging expert, but in certain training methods, if you "address" the hind quarters with the whip, that means to stop, turn and face. Try addressing her inside shoulder while remaining behind the drive line to see if she reacts any differently.
That may be the case here. She is doing exactly that, and it is an immediate response. At first, I thought maybe she had actually been hit with the whip in the past, and was turning her hind quarters away from it. I don't think that is the case, however, because she shows no fear of the whip at all.
I have tried working her on a line, and it does work better with her. I have been trying to work without the line because that is how Tim works Lightning, and it seems so easy for him (but, of course, he knows what he's doing).
Most horses have that response to a whip on the hind quarters if they've never been taught anything else. It's just natural. You're trying to whip something and they're trying to hide it so you can't.
Try breaking the act of asking her to go forward into steps. First, lift your arm holding the lead up to shoulder level, pointing in the direction you want her to go. Pause a second, then cluck to her or what ever signal you want to use to say "go forward", pause a second, then lift your whip hand, pause, then swing the whip hand like you're going to tag her with it, but don't, then if she still hasn't responded, tag her with it, hard, but on the shoulder area. This should startle her enough to take a step or two in the direction you want her to go and that's all you want for now.. Just repeat until she starts recognizing the steps that happen before she gets tagged and will react quicker to avoid it. Finally all you'll have to do is raise your lead arm and she'll move off. You can worry about the circling and more advanced stuff later.
I know you're getting lots of conflicting advice. We all do things differently. Just do what ever works for you.
She certainly has been hit with it, I would assume, and FWIW, so has Lightning, and any other horse who moves away from it. Horses don't learn to lunge having never had the whip or the end of the line, or whatever you are using, touch them. They don't learn to respect it because of anything inate about whips, if they didn't know it can reach them and it hurts, they wouldn't learn to move when it moves. Most horses don't fear the whip as an inatimate object, they fear it only when you apply it... It's your body language with it that they might fear, not the object sitting on the ground. Some who have been overly whipped fear it too much and it can be a distraction. It's a balance. Actually hitting them with it is fairly rare with a fairly responsive horse. It shouldn't be used on a confused horse who doesn't know what to do, but rather used to enforce a command when the horse is lazily ignoring a ~known~ command to trot or canter from the walk, for example.
You are, of course, right about that. When I said hit, I meant overly whipped. I do recognize the difference.
BTW, I do realize that there will be conflicting advice, and I appreciate all of it. I will consider and learn from all of it.
Heh... I like your advice broken down into the steps when she has stopped to face. Yes, open up the area in front of her by extending your line hand up and out, that will give her a place to move into... and I agree with the idea of applying the whip at the shoulder, on the idea that you want her to move away at the shoulder. I will sometimes, if they have gotten flustered and done the 'turn and face' thing, turn the whip around and prod them with the handle end at the shoulder or girth to get the same effect, while saying "MOVE OUT".
Good. There are actually people who will try to say it should never touch them... People who have only acquired horses who someone already taught using it. They've never started one from scratch ;~D
Your right :)
I guess I'm curious to see what she knows and am thinking she's been trained to do what she's doing so something deaconjim is doing is triggering this.
:) Well, we've started a lot and most generally, they don't ever feel that whip unless they are very deliberately misbehaving. We use it more as a pointer and flick it behind them to send them forward, in front of them to turn them on the rail. That and body position generally works along with voice commands for everything, walk, trot, canter, whoa, easy, come here, turn, etc.
It usually only takes once till they know what it does. ;~D
I don't lunge Bay with the whip and never have since I got him. He doesn't need the impulsion and is too worried when I have it. Someone over-used it with him. Pony, same thing. Cyn, however, needs it or she'll just stop and graze. ;~D
Possible, being able to see her body language instead of just imagining would help us know... I am comparing what she is doing to what Cyn does when ecurbh was learning to lunge her. She's been round-penned. I think she's just confused and evading what she views as punishment by coming in. They'll either do this to avoid leaving their hindquarter vulnerable to the whip, and/or because they are really confused and seeking comfort.
Free-lunge guys like Monty Roberts reward this behavior as "OK, I submit, don't hurt me". I think some horses use that to avoid work. In this pic... ecurbh has gotten his line all FUBARed and he's got the whip in the wrong hand (it's hard to see because it's green), was giving her mixed signals, so she came in to him.
Here he's getting her going again by getting behind her and driving her forward.
There's probably as many ways of training horses as there are horses. A lot depends on what the horse is going to be used for, the age of the horse, and previous training. Bay and the pony have learned to fear a whip, Cyn has learned that she can ignore her instructions which now takes a firmer stance to correct that. I don't mean that she learned that from you, I mean that's baggage she came with.
It's interesting learning what horses have previously been taught - they have tremendous memories. I find it fascinating that some of the horses we get have training based on the tack you place on them. A bit and bridle is a normal headset and a trail horse, a bosal turns the same horse into a very controled western pleasure horse, head down. A laid back horse that ambles down the road suddenly becomes focused and determined when they see engineering tape flags tied on the bushes along the trail. A horse that stands half asleep while being groomed or tacked suddenly looks like a statue when you take him in a show ring. Shift your seat a little on a ride to get comfortable and your horse starts racking.
Really fascinating to me. Learning all that they know and taking advantage of it. 'Course our babies just know what we teach them but I'd hate to think they go on to others and get disciplined for what we have taught them to do.
The fact that we use a round pen makes a difference I think also. Round pen is for work, paddocks are for relaxing. We do free lunge our experienced horses but only in the round pen. If we worked ours in their paddocks they would be confused too, since that's not their working area.
They do. She's still learning to lunge 'our' way, and un-learning the Monty Roberts way. I can respect his way, it's just a lot more exercise for the handler to chase them around and I like to stand fairly stationary and give voice commands in more 'classical english' style. We also don't ~have~ a round pen, so we need her to lunge in a circle without running spirals around the whole pasture. We had a lot of success with Cyn by using dual long-lines with her, where we could use the outside rein to keep her straight in the circle, to keep her from being able to turn in.
YES:).
IMO:) free lunging teaches more bad habits then it does any kind of training.
With one that turns and faces you like that, it IS hard to work, and at that point the only thing I can say is, first anticipate that she is going to do that and be ready to correct BEFORE she actually does it. You won't be able to just stand in the center at first, till you get her broke of doing that. You need to stay more towards her hip end, and be giving her the voice command, I kiss, non stop till/while she circles without turning towards you. If she does get turned to face you, as she comes to you, pop her in the chest/inside shoulder with the whip, not face, to back her off. Then get yourself back in postion at her hip and get her going. Don't get discouraged it can be difficult to stay at their hip. Especially since you don't want to be within kicking distance:)
One thing to remember, is horses move away from pressure.
If you do get her good with the whip and she takes off fast, let her go for a half circle before getting her to slow down to a trot. And when slowing her down, don;t keep constant pressure on the halter, pull and release, pull and release, while at the same time kissing, and even if necessary, tapping on her butt with the whip, to keep from coming to a complete stop and facing you again. When slowing one down, I also use the voice command "easy". All these voice commands will transfer on to when you ride.
Anticipating what they are going to do and correct BEFORE they do it is the key. IMO:). Then when they ARE doing it right for 2 circles, STOP. Pat. stand a few seconds, start again.
I hope I'm making sense. This is all hard to explain:)
Becky
Reading down thru the posts.
One other helpful thing, that I do, is instead of a whip, you can use the end of your lunge line, and twirl it like a rope when you want them to keep going, and/or pitch it at the hindquarters to keep them going.
Sometimes it's hard to keep all the equipment going:), and hold the horse.
Becky
We don't have the luxury of a round pen or an arena... our work and leisure time has to share space. ;~D
I was all excited to work horses a little today, it's ~still~ warm here, it just won't stop raining. :~\
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