Posted on 10/02/2004 3:48:27 PM PDT by Quix
Ahhhh, THANKS!
Perhaps they got all mushed together in my scrolling or in my hastey reading.
In a bit of a press to get a wearable art piece ready for the show tomorrow at the college. The weaving guild's turn. Crimping my style as I thought it was more ready than it turned out to be.
Will try to get back to responding to that 684 post probably Thursday.
Blessings,
I will note that I have very mixed feelings about how week the positions are on your side.
On the one hand, it's not at all surprising because there just aren't any logical or Scriptural supports for such a weak position as cessationism.
On the other hand, I had really thought at least a couple of you would at least appear initially to put up better arguments. It makes it more fun, in a sense. Maybe a twisted sense, but in a sense.
But then, John McArthur's not any better.
Here's lies our problem...
Your bible...? I don't know???? am asking????
Acts 8:13 says it was because he saw that through the laying on of the apostle's hands the Holy Ghost (miraculous measure, that is USN) was given, he offered them (the apostles USN) money.
My bible...New American Standard Bible
Acts 8:13 Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
We shouldn't even go there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anyway here is a prophecy for the times and a good example to compare others to... be sure and catch the last verse:)
Jeremiah 30
Deliverance from Captivity Promised
1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book.
3 'For behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' The LORD says, 'I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.'"
4 Now these are the words which the LORD spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah:
5 "For thus says the LORD,
'I have heard a sound of terror,
Of dread, and there is no peace.
6
'Ask now, and see
If a male can give birth.
Why do I see every man
With his hands on his loins, as a woman in childbirth?
And why have all faces turned pale?
7
'Alas! for that day is great,
There is none like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's distress,
But he will be saved from it.
8 'It shall come about on that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'that I will break his yoke from off their neck and will tear off their bonds; and strangers will no longer make them their slaves.
9 'But they shall serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.
10
'Fear not, O Jacob My servant,' declares the LORD,
'And do not be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar
And your offspring from the land of their captivity.
And Jacob will return and will be quiet and at ease,
And no one will make him afraid.
11
'For I am with you,' declares the LORD, 'to save you;
For I will destroy completely all the nations where I have scattered you,
Only I will not destroy you completely.
But I will chasten you justly
And will by no means leave you unpunished.'
12
"For thus says the LORD,
'Your wound is incurable
And your injury is serious.
13
'There is no one to plead your cause;
No healing for your sore,
No recovery for you.
14
'All your lovers have forgotten you,
They do not seek you;
For I have wounded you with the wound of an enemy,
With the punishment of a cruel one,
Because your iniquity is great
And your sins are numerous.
15
'Why do you cry out over your injury?
Your pain is incurable.
Because your iniquity is great
And your sins are numerous,
I have done these things to you.
16
'Therefore all who devour you will be devoured;
And all your adversaries, every one of them, will go into captivity;
And those who plunder you will be for plunder,
And all who prey upon you I will give for prey.
17
'For I will restore you to health
And I will heal you of your wounds,' declares the LORD,
'Because they have called you and outcast, saying:
"It is Zion; no one cares for her."'
Restoration of Jacob
18
"Thus says the LORD,
'Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob
And have compassion on his dwelling places;
And the city will be rebuilt on its ruin,
And the palace will stand on its rightful place.
19
'From them will proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who celebrate;
And I will multiply them and they will not be diminished;
I will also honor them and they will not be insignificant.
20
'Their children also will be as formerly,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all their oppressors.
21
'Their leader shall be one of them,
And their ruler shall come forth from their midst;
And I will bring him near and he shall approach Me;
For who would dare to risk his life to approach Me?' declares the LORD.
22
'You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.'"
23
Behold, the tempest of the LORD!
Wrath has gone forth,
A sweeping tempest;
It will burst on the head of the wicked.
24
The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back
Until He has performed and until He has accomplished
The intent of His heart;
In the latter days you will understand this.
It occurs to me . . .
that there is some at least small possibility that we could actually put this cessationsist nonsense behind us IF we could do as I mentioned above . . .
List the arguments against it on one side, one column and the responses from the cessationists on the other.
I'm not sure when I'll get time to get to that. Would there be anyone else able and willing with the time and energy available to do that? I'd greatly appreciate it.
It would probably be best with say no more than 1-3 or so sentences per point.
Blessings,
Qx
Whereas unbelievers today have the benefit of the written word, the people back then did not. So miracles are NOT needed as much today as they were then.
******
ROFL!!!!!OH yeah...I'll take a few typed out words over a miracle anyday. Next heart surgery the Doc. tells me I have to have, when he says for the THIRD time, your chances are NOT good. I'll just meekly say ....Oh I'll be fine...just give me a few typed words and I won't need a miracle....I'll be fine...don't mind me...meek, humble, meek, humble. GOOD GRIEF!!! Written word over a miracle!!! My God is the Father of miracles, He sent his Son the word made flesh as a sacrifice, to manifest some those miracles as to who he was and we weren't told it was for a select group. Sorry ....my Heavenly Father has never been stingy with me when it comes to handing out miracles and its not been a few typed out words. But then I never put him in a box either, informing him what he could or couldn't do. HE can do whatever he darn well pleases....let God be true and every MAN be a liar.
VERY WELL SAID.
And your way of doing the two column thing would be OK. But I was planning to just take what they've said. And, 1) they haven't said much all that significant. And, they have left many points against cessationism unresponded to AT ALL!
I just think laying all that out that's already been posted and a lot of blanks for the nonposted responses--would be very illustrative of the bankrupt state of cecessationism.
Thanks tons for your fine post.
Thanks Quix, Boy I get so fired up over people trying to make God in their image. Like He gets up every morning and decides to do things the way WE think they should be done. HA!! This country is in for a HUGE wake up call.
Bunch of self centered, spoiled, self indulging, selfish, idol worshiping, witchcraft practicing people. Full rebellion..that is all I see anymore. The Beast nature in mankind shows its face more and more everyday. sigh.
Hey,
SUPER BROTHER BRIAR BEY,
THANKS TONS. STRONGLY AGREE WITH YOU.
That's where a sizeable chunk of my fire on the topic comes from. I *KNOW* GOD IS DIFFERENT THAN CHARACTERIZED BY SUCH DEMON DOCTRINES!
And, I KNOW GOD ALMIGHTY is NOT thrilled with such characterizations.
And I KNOW HE is getting ready to make some BIG exclamation points about such issues.
I would GREATLY PREFER that anyone who claims the Name of Jesus NOT BE on the receiving end of Christ's NEXT cat of nine tails driving the pharisees and money changers out of the Temple!!!
One would have thought that even the narrative description of that would have been enough to warn people. But, of course, being perverse humans, we tend to avoid seeing ourselves as implacated in being due discipline! Sigh.
I'm really rather shocked that the cessationists haven't come up with ANYTHING the least bit significant. NOTHING IN SCRIPTURE--which I knew they wouldn't come up with--BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING THERE for them TO come up with! But I thought perhaps they'd have some interesting logic which would be hollow and bankrupt at it's core and foundation but still interesting, perhaps a bit significant somehow. NADA, ZIP, NOTHING worth a gnat's fart's worth of concern.
AND THEY PUT THEIR WHOLE DOCTRINAL HOUSE IN SUCH A TINY TIDY LITTLE BOX??????????????????
And they expect GOD'S APPROVAL FOR THAT!!!!????? INCREDIBLE. Incredibly stupid. God has tons of grace for incredibly stupid but not so much for willful blindness. And there's plenty of that involved, too.
Anyway--always enjoy your posts. Thanks, tons.
You have some good Scripture to support your views, but not enough to persuade me that individuals possess gifts which were given only to the Apostles.
IMO, to rely on such extra-Biblical events is a hold-over from the Roman Catholic Church which has always put the institution of men between the sheep and their Shepherd. The Catholic Church insists that it is the necessary intermediary between God's Word and man, and that the church is required to interpret the Bible for the masses. Likewise, dreams and prophecies need their "interpretation."
The Reformation was fought over such error.
I think dreams and prophecies can be easily misused. Whereas if we depend on Scripture alone for our guidance, led to understanding by the Holy Spirit, we cannot fail. It seems prudent to choose the clearer path.
So I find myself in agreement with John Calvin who offered that --
"Though Christ does not expressly state whether he intends this gift [of miracles] to be temporary, or to remain perpetually in the Church, yet it is more probable that miracles were promised only for a time, in order to give lustre to the gospel while it was new or in a state of obscurity." -- John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, IV, iii, 4.
You never made any coherent points. As I recall, most of my time was spent trying to get you to an honest debate.
Your psychology is even more fascinatiing than what passes for your theology.
You are pathetic.
Posted it a long time ago. Go find it.
I think dreams and prophecies can be easily misused.
****
So can scripture, that's why we have umpteen million denominations all screaming they are the only ones who have the truth. Come here!! Come here!! Bring your money to our business, (and it is a business once it ties itself to the state, for that all important tax exempt status) because WE can show you the way to the Father, we can help you work out your salvation with fear and trembling. NO Thank you!
That was a typo. It should be Acts 8:18 not 8:13
Matthew 12
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
ROFL!!!!!OH yeah...I'll take a few typed out words over a miracle anyday.
*****
If you can take that comment that far OUT of context or meaning, I am not surprised you find what you find in the scriptures.
I find nothing in the scriptures to suggest prophesy or “tongues” have passed. I know there is the verse in 1 Cor 13 saying “…tongues, they will cease” but it also says “…knowledge, it will be done away with”.
Having experienced a few “dreams” and “visions” myself, I have always been very cautious in saying whether these were or were not from the Lord and I maintain a dismissive attitude with them. I have found no scriptural way to verify where they come from and apparently others feel the same way. They lead only to divisiveness.
When I was a kid growing up in a non-Christian home a friend of mine and I found an Ouji Board while playing in the garage. As a lark we thought we would try the thing out. Skeptic that I am I ask the board a tough question my friend could not possibly have known the answer to (and it was not a yes/no question). That board spelled out the correct answer and, no, I did not “guide” the control. Even now I shutter when thinking about it. While the board was correct, it was not coming from God.
Dreams, visions, speaking in tongues, etc is playing in dangerous territory. You are in the twilight between Heaven and Hell and its best never to go there.
Out of context ? You're telling me that you didn't mean that scripture is in no way good enough to accomplish God's purpose ? Well that was certainly the tone of your post. Is it good enough or not ? The miracle we have today that spurs our belief is the Resurrection of Jesus Christ ! THAT is our SIGN ! If that's not good enough, too bad !!!
I see your point but I know the Lord told me if I asked for a piece of bread, He would not give me a stone. What is Faith? Just plain ole TRUST. I don't remember dreams unless they are prophetic, so basically in 50 yrs. I have had 4 dreams that I can still give you exact detail about, they are burned into my brain, and I can't find my glasses 1/2 the time, so that says how sharp I can be. I don't believe a single one to be from the enemy. I don't look for signs, I don't care about them. I feel blessed and somewhat afraid when the Lord shares something coming with me. Does He always? NO!!! 4 dreams in 50 yrs. is not a weekly proclamation of "Thus sayeth the Lord." Only one brought complete and total destruction of a church, with the forewarned Pastors wife dieing in a freak..freak accident. He should have listened, but then who am I and dreams are just dreams aren't they? That dream was not only for that time but for what is coming upon the church businesses set up in this country.
Usually...He just tells me. My second open-heart, I needed a valve replacement. A brand new mechanical one was the choice of all the cardiologists and family and friends. Would last me 400 yrs. It was very pretty. I said no...I will take the porcine valve. Everyone was furious, HOW could I be so stupid. Those only last 2-10 yrs. I said...God told me to take the porcine valve and that is the one I want, end of discussion!!! I didn't care what kind of facts they were giving me. Nor did I question God's telling me what I should do. Surgery was done, pig valve put in place and 2 yrs. later there was a recall on the mechanical one, it was popping the center piece and people were dropping over dead. My pig valve went for 15 yrs. and I now have a human valve, which I knew the Lord would give me one day. I was just kind of hopeing for the sky to open and great rays of light to come down on my head and that pig valve to be transformed....rofl. Didn't get it that way. Do I still consider it a miracle? Yes. He has always kept man's knowledge just ahead of me and He has still kept me. God also told me not to abort each one of my 3 children, I was told I would never bear children, the Drs. tried to take each one. I have all 3 and did great, no problems.
Why with my lifes experiences, why would ANYONE.. think I would care two hoots and a hollar about what their opinions are about God. Talk to me after you have beat all the odds given you and laid your life on the line a few times KNOWING and having faith in what He has told you. Otherwise take a hike...you vainly imagine to know of what you know nothing about.
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