Posted on 08/13/2004 9:36:00 AM PDT by IdaBriggs
Hello. I am hoping you can help me.
I am trying to "reach out" to your side of the world in an effort to help each side understand the other. I apologize in advance if I offend or upset any of you, because that is NOT my intention. I hope by putting my "real name" on this post, you will view what I am about to say in the sincere way I mean it.
I am somewhat frightened of you.
Again, I apologize if I am offending, but I thought you should know about it. I also know I am not alone in my feelings about you because I have talked with other people who feel the same way. We think you are trying to impose your religion and way of life on the rest of us.
I know most of you are good people. You are kind and generous with your friends, family and neighbors. You help strangers change tires, work as teachers, risk your lives in the service of others -- all things everyone admires, respects and honors. Those of us on "the other side" do the same thing.
But sometimes you talk in painful ways about “evil” as if to associate us with "demons" and "satan" because we don't agree with your path. That is very hurtful, and it makes us feel like you don't really see us as fellow human beings with different understandings of God. I am a gardener by hobby, and not always a very good one. My husband likes to tease me about "killing plants" instead of growing them because sometimes I over water or put too much fertilizer on them, yet every year I keep trying, and gradually, my garden is starting to become beautiful. I love roses in particular, and am reminded every day how wonderful God is because He made so many different kinds – I have three different red roses alone, and each one is perfect! I have seven different colors of Petunias, and use them to explain how God loves people of all colors to my neighbor's children. I guess that is why I believe you, who scare me so, really do have love in your hearts for all of us, even though sometimes it doesn't seem that way.
The worst times are when the topics of Abortion and Gay Sex come up. No one would ever force you to have an Abortion or indulge in Gay Sex in America EVER, yet you persist in making these topics of conversation as if they trump all other considerations. The only way I can reconcile this with a rational viewpoint is if I think you believe you are trying to SAVE those who don't believe the way you do from Hell. This seems to be a very loving action on your part, but feels rude and controlling in a not-positive way to the rest of us. Many of us do not believe these things will result in eternal damnation, but are simply part of God’s plan for each individual.
If you are truly horrified by the thought of these things, I don’t know what to say to make it easier for you to understand, but I will still try. I guess it would be like making everyone not wear jewelry or make up because some churches believe adornment is demonstrating vanity; it may end up being something we are all judged by, but it may also simply be a misreading or misinterpretation of the text. I am not saying your adherence to the tenets of your faith is wrong; I am saying other people have a right to love God in their own ways, and our civil laws should not be about defining “sin” but crime.
I say again, I am not meaning to offend. I have a very strong faith in God, and trust him to do the right thing. I don't like hearing people say that God is judging all of America based on who is President; both men have qualities worthy of admiration at some level, and both are interviewing for the job of enforcing our constitution. It demands we keep church and state as separate institutions so that we don't have wars in this country over religion (like they do in Ireland with Catholics and Protestants or in Iraq with Sunni's and Shiites). It demands I respect your right NOT to have an abortion if you don't want one, and NOT to indulge in gay sex if you don't want to, and to follow the teachings of your faith in the way you best understand them. It demands we all work "for the common defense, promote the general welfare and ensure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity" and on behalf of that, I am reaching out to you to find out how we can frame the debates on these things without heaping scorn and shame upon each other. No matter what the results of the November 2, 2004, election, I personally want all Americans to be proud of our country, and the way we run it.
I know I am already.
In Humble Sincerity, Ida M. Briggs
I occasionally jump out of airplanes, as part of my employment with Uncle Sam. This metaphor sprung into my head upon reading your above line.
Imagine that you jump out of an airplane, and you realize that your parachute doesn't work? When should you be considered dead? At 1000 feet? 100? 10? Once you hit zero, you'll be medically and legally dead, but at what point are you pretty much assured to die?
Most people haven't fallen from such a height, but I can assure you that things don't look nearly as real from 1000 feet then they do at 10. It's never real to me until the last few seconds.
I'd say, being pregnant is pretty much the same thing, just in reverse. Once you start the process, the conclusion is pretty inevitible (barring miscarriages or suddenly correcting your parachute malfunction), regardless of how things appear to you at the time.
Now, how do we use the slavery/"inferior human beings with fewer rights" argument to argue against abortion, but keep that argument from being used in regards to homosexuality? Thoughts?
Easy. With slavery and abortion, the discrimination is automatic and arbitrary. You are black, hence I can enslave you. You are unborn, hence I can kill you.
The victim, in each case, doesn't do anything. They simple ARE.
With homosexuality, a group isn't being singled out arbitrarily. Individuals are singling themselves out by their personal actions.
Hollywood types who scream 'censorship' fall for the same logical fallacy when they say stupid things and find themselves less popular. No one is 'discriminating' against them for who or what they are. They DID something that caused other people not to like them.
People should not be discriminated against for what they are. That has nothing to do with being judged by your actions. There is 'right to be approved for anything you do'.
I guess you've never heard of partial birth abortion. That is where they stop delivery of the baby at the birth canal, punch a hole in the back of its skull with a pair of scissors and then suck its brains out. Again, that is during delivery.
That may be the way you want to frame the question but others would like to ask "when does it become a human life?" Since the DoI declares that we have an inalienable right to life it is a Constitutional question.
So when does an embryonic human begin life?
i don't see the difference. a couple points though, the DoI is not the Constitution, and a sperm and an egg are both already living. these things aside, if you'd rather replace the word "child" with "human life" for the sake of this argument, i have no problem with that.
i have heard about partial birth abortions, and i was just as shocked as you when i heard of such barbarism. that is, until i learned that partial birth abortions were not at all what i thought they were.
i thought that partial birth abortions were where a woman could carry a baby to term and be in the middle of giving birth and have it aborted. but, i was wrong... it refers to a legal (ie--NOT 3rd trimester) abortion where the fetus is partially pulled from the birth canal before aborted. so, that didn't have any effect on my stance.
i'll admit to not really seeing the analogy as it relates to abortion, but to answer your question... i would consider you dead when you died, not at 1000, 100, or 10 feet.
you would seem to be saying that if black slaves had the ability to be white, and therefore no longer slaves, then it would be ok to enslave the ones that chose not to be white... is that about right???
No.
Also, the question is loaded, and I'll explain why.
Slavery, in the American experience, was white enslaving black. In most of world history, from the islands of SE Asia to the corners of Africa and all through Asia, it was generally people who looked the same enslaving each other. I'm sure you knew that, but I'm just reminding you that our experience with slavery was unusual.
So, if people could change skin color at will, it wouldn't change anything. Slavery is not a synonmy for racism, it's a coercive social system that exists for economic reasons. Morally, slavery is a sin of the master. Masters will always find a reason to be in charge, and always find more people to enslave, until broken of the habit by force.
But to play with your analogy here, of 'master' and 'hetero' to 'slave' and 'gay', here's the problem. Aside from the marriage issue, which is a unique social status for men and women to raise children in, heteros and gays are legally the same. Gay individuals aren't working in the fields for whip wielding heteros. They can do anything, biology notwithstanding, that heteros individuals can.
The reason they don't have marriage, is that they don't qualify. There is no gay culture, gay language, gay history, or gay ethnic group. There is no gay traditions to be passed to future generations because there are no future generations. Homosexuals by definition don't generate. Even if they get a piece of paper that says 'Marriage license' on it, they will never be anything more than a couple agreeing not to have sex with other people.
So, comparing them to black African slaves, who lost their culture, language, history, and tribal ties, is silly. We kidnapped a group of people and stole everything from them, including their identity, and put them to work for centuries. That has zero to do with denying two guys in drag a piece of paper to help them feel normal. Trying to equate what our slaves suffered to the collective whining of some sexual hobbyists is odious and illogical.
..No one would ever force you to have an Abortion or indulge in Gay Sex in America EVER, yet you persist in making these topics of conversation as if they trump all other considerations..
That's not true. Rape exists in the gay community as well as the straight community; and there are parents or husbands or boyfriends who force (not physically, but emotionally and mentally) their child/wife/girl to have abortions.
As for making it the topic, as far as the gay crowd is concerned, they make it the topic by being so forthright and public. Case in point is the NJ Gov....he went public, so he made it a public topic.
Fair enough. So being outside of an airplane without a functioning parachute is not imminently fatal at 1000 feet? 100 feet? 10 feet? But it becomes fatally unsafe at zero feet, when you are in fact observably not alive?
When I say 'consider you dead', I mean that for all intents and purposes, you have taken a course of action that will result in you being dead.
Is the analogy getting any clearer?
Well, after lurking quite a bit in DU land, because of this thread, I decided to try a post.
I was as nice as can be. I tried to engage in a real dialog with no insults. I got 2 posts in and then ZAP! I was a goner. ..and I am extremely moderate. Those guys are the most intolerant people on the net.
When I read the bulls*** they say about FR on there, and then get banned so quickly.. it makes them look like bigger fools than I ever realized.
The freakin' thought nazis....
No, they don't.
Ever hear of partial birth abortion?
Thankfully, we're on the cusp of outlawing it.
Consistant.
Wrong skippy. If you did, you wouldn't be acting this way.
Here's the deal, and you know it...
I would like to give back just as your're giving. But since I am, obviously, the newbie here, I would lose...You would win. I know that, and more importantly, you know that. Thus, your attitude.
Weak. Very weak, man...
Damn...The spelling police must have gotten some federal funding or something.
Read down the thread and have a good laugh.
Sarry you is ded. I wuz goin two help u wid spellin, gramer, and corect werd choice
yes they do, actually. see my earlier post regarding partial birth abortion. the term is a misnomer, it's not done after the 2nd trimester... at least not legally anyway.
i understand what you're saying... basically once a series of events begins where only one conclusion is possible or likely, the conclusion may as well have already happened. In regards to abortion, i don't see it that way. that doesn't mean i'm right of course, it just means the logic doesn't convince me. like i said, where you draw the line pretty much determines where you stand on the issue... and unfortunately, one can draw the line just about anywhere.
you might consider yourself dead when you jumped out of a plane with a faulty parachute. others might say it was when you hit the ground, or maybe once you were too close to the ground for the chute to be effective anymore. still others would say it was when you took off, or when you messed up while packing the chute, or even when you took the job.
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