Did Jews Kill Jesus? So What?

Vanity | 3/9/2004 | Charles Lipsig (Me)

[Celtjew Libertarian]

From all I'm reading, the central question surrounding Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ is whether or not Gibson is portraying the Jews as responsible for the death of Jesus and whether or not this is anti-Semitism. I have a different question, if you'll pardon it coming from a non-Christian who's not seen the movie and isn't terribly familiar with the Christian Bible: So what?

I understand history. I understand that blaming Jews for the death of Jesus was a cause of anti-Semitism in the past. Heck, my grandparents and great-grandparents came to America, fleeing that mindset. I understand that there are still nutcases around -- perhaps entire nutty societies, though not in the U.S. -- who hold this to be the case and say that today's Jews are responsible for what happened almost two-thousand years ago.

But I also understand that this is the United States. This is a nation founded on the belief in the individual. An American cannot legally be punished for the actions of their family (the one exception being parents sometimes being held responsible for the acts of minor children). What a parent does is not held against their children.

By that bedrock belief, to hold the Jews of today responsible for whatever was done by the Jews of Jesus's time -- and even then, by those relatively few Jews who called for Jesus's death (Jews were already rather widely dispersed through the Roman Empire at that time, even if the Diaspora had not yet occurred) -- is un-American. More than blaming children for the actions of parents, it is blaming people of today for what their potential fifty-plus-times-great-grandparents may or may not have done and said. It goes against the American belief of individual responsibility.

Again: So what? Those worried that Gibson's move is anti-Semitic could easily say, "Maybe the Jews killed Jesus. Maybe they didn't. But no one can be held responsible for what occurred two-thousand years ago." But they don't. Why not?

Take a look at the politics of most of the critics. They're on the political left. And among the views held on the political left is support of affirmative action. Many on the left support slave reparations. Many blame American actions for the acts of 9/11.

In short, most of the left believe in collective guilt. They may not call it that, but penalizing members of certain groups and rewarding others for misdeeds in the past is collective guilt. The left holds individuals guilty for the acts of their ancestors. The time span may be compressed, but the American left has the same anti-individualist mindset that murdered Jews, claiming they were responsible for the death of Jesus.

For the left to confront the possibility that Jews -- not THE Jews, but some Jews -- may have been complicit in the death of Jesus would require them to say that there is no such thing as collective guilt. For a political mindset that has its policies grounded in this same collective guilt, this is an impossible thing to do. Thus, they must attack the movie.

So what? So that.

[Blood of Tyrants]

For the record, I didn't post it, just a link to it. Second, there are those who go out of their way to find anti-Semitism where it doesn't exist. They are little better than Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson screaming racism every time a black drug dealer is shot by white cops and I find, just as boorish. I was just trying to cover all my bases here, okay?

[Polybius]

The quote you posted in Post 78 is an example of the mind set of Eastern Europe that I have been referring to in my posts. It is disturbing that such thinking still exists in some individuals today.

The way I read that Bible quote from Matthew is that Pontius Pilate does not want personal blame and told Caipoha's rent-a-mob ...........

(This is the key point. Pilate asks the mob. Not every Jew in Judea. Not the Jews out of hearing range of Pontius Pilate's voice. Pontius Pilate specifically asked the mob.)

“I am not guilty of this man’s death. You are the ones who are causing it!”

THe mob cheerfully accepted the blame and threw their progeny in for good measure.....not that they had any right to or that God would blame the son's for the sins of the stupid fathers.

So, in short, that quote does not mean "The Jews killed Christ". It does not mean the Jewish people are cursed by Christ. It does not even mean the children of the mob were cursed by Christ.

It simply means that a rent-a-mob acted as a rent-a-mob and said stupid, macho things.

That is the way I read that passage and that is the way I believe most American Christians read that passage.

[Blood of Tyrants]

P.S. Third, I don't pretend to know even a tiny bit of God's great plan for the Jews or even my own life for that matter.

[Blood of Tyrants]

I doubt you'll find Jews who consider him Jewish.

Would I be wrong in saying that most Jews who convert to Christianity (even Messianic Jews who worship in synagogues) are not considered "real Jews" by many other Jews?

[missyme]

hmmmI don't see it that way...Salvation if from the Jews...
If the Jews did not exsist neither would Jesus or Christianity.

I was just watching a large crusade with Benny Himm in India, thousands of Indians learning who Jesus Christ is, they even had people from Zimbabwe who were crying of joy knowing who Jesus is and the power of the Lord and acceptance of Y'SHUA...How come in 3rd world countries Love for Jesus has nothing to do with who killed him?

Watching these people that live in the worst conditions possible poor, un-educated, crying with happiness knowing there is hope in Jesus Christ..The Messiah A Jew from Galiee...To me this is where Christ would be right now (India) (Africa) if he was here not on FR spending days and hours discussing who killed him with people that have every luxury possible...

[SJackson]

For the second time, I'm not accusing you of anything, other than maybe not reading clearly what you were linking, nor am I accusing you or any other Christians here of sharing that particular interpritation.

[SJackson]

The quote you posted in Post 78 is an example of the mind set of Eastern Europe that I have been referring to in my posts. It is disturbing that such thinking still exists in some individuals today.

If you're referring Jews, I've never heard a Jew express an opinion like that. The issue of guilt for Jesus's death is irrelevant.

If as I assume you're referring to the mindset of Eastern European Christians, I'd probably say it's a minority Christian opinion and leave it at that. Eastern Europe is making progress in allowing Jews to return and practice their faith.

If you're referring to the actual post, which from an earlier link, IMO considering the source, it's a sales pitch. You're a Jew, you're guilty, join us and you still get to be a Jew. Hasn't proven to be very effective. Statistics show the best way method of getting a Jew to convert is to get him/her a Christian spouse. Works the other way around too.

[Blood of Tyrants]

For the second time, I am not accusing you of accusing me of accusing you of, well you get the picture. The statement was for the benefit of others.

[SJackson]

Would I be wrong in saying that most Jews who convert to Christianity (even Messianic Jews who worship in synagogues) are not considered "real Jews" by many other Jews?

Jews who convert to Christianity are considered Christians by Jews. They are apostate Jews, which I believe is how Christian's describe converts to another religion as well.

[SJackson]

You mean people don't read all the posts before posting :>)

[missyme]

What does this mean Convert? I know a Jewish/Christian couple they both beleive Jesus is the Messiah...they go to Messianic Synagogue, they celebrate Jewish holidays...the woman does not have a denomination she is just a believer in Christ so what did they convert to. If the early Christians were Jews then were they converts..People made this up..again not from G-d.

I do not see that Jesus said at the last supper..You all are now converts, since you follow my words you are now "Christians" I do not see that in the Gospels, just another man made up phrase...

[missyme]

I would like to ask you if you know who were the first people that came up with the name "Christian" was it the Jews? was it Apostle Paul? was it G-d? was it Jesus Christ? who was it?

[Salman]

Yes there are more disgusting movies than this one. I still have a problem with folks taking children to "The Passion". Reading about it is OK, seeing it is another.

[Blood of Tyrants]

The New Testement says that people at the church in Antioch wer the first who called Barnabas and Saul "Christians". Yes, most likely many of them were Jews. Your point?

[missyme]

If we were to ask a random Christian off the street: "What was the religion of Jesus?" They would unhesitantly respond: "Christianity." If we were then to ask: "Did Jesus himself ever use this word? Did he ever call his religion 'Christianity' or call his followers 'Christians'?" If this Christian knows his Bible, he will say, "No."

"So," we would continue, "once again, what was his religion?" If this Christian knows his Bible he will now respond "Judaism." "That's right!," we would affirm, "Jesus was a Jew! He followed the religion of Moses!" (read chapter one). "According to the Bible, Jesus lived and died never having violated a single aspect of the true Mosaic religion.

He fasted when they fasted. He prayed as they prayed. He observed the Sabbath as the Jews did. He never in his life tasted pork. He was circumcised like all faithful Jews, and he ordered his followers to keep the commandments of the God 'till heaven and earth pass' (Matthew 5:17-18)." So Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew!

He followed the religion of Moses (pbuh). The word "Christianity" was not invented till long after the departure of Jesus (pbuh).

We have already demonstrated in chapter one how everything from the Catholic Encyclopedia, to countless Christian scholars, to Western encyclopedias, in addition to many other Christian sources all confirm that the true founder of "Christianity" was the Jew named "Saul of Tarsus."

More popularly known as "Saint Paul." According to the Bible, it was only after Jesus' (pbuh) death that the religion he observed so faithfully was nullified. This was done upon the authority of "Saint Paul" who had never met him in the flesh, and who claimed that he was receiving divine "visions" from Jesus' ghost ordering him to nullify that which Jesus (pbuh) observed throughout his life and commanded his followers to observe "till heaven and earth pass."

[missyme]

Tried to answer this in Post#95

[Blood of Tyrants]

(pbuh)?

Is this sort of like "Gollum!"

[missyme]

I was trying to address who is a convert....I beleive that Messianic Jews are Jews they are not following the religion of PAUL so they are not apostate they are Jews.
Now if a Jew becomes a Ctholic or a Lutheran, Mormon then he would be a convert.

[missyme]

Muslim what?
No Jesus was not a Christian, that posting was that Moses was a Jew and if Jesus went to the cross a follower of the Mosaic Law then he was a Jew and now how long before Christianity came along "Paul"... I googled a search to see when the word Christian was used...