Interview: Mel Gibson

Dark Horizons ^ | February 16, 2004 | Paul Fischer

[ultima ratio]

Monday February 16th, 2004

Interview: Mel Gibson "The Passion of the Christ" Posted: Friday February 13th, 2003 11:00 AM Author: Paul Fischer Location: Los Angeles, CA

26 years ago Paul Fischer and Mel Gibson got together for his first on-camera interview. Gibson was a star-on-the-rise, while his interviewer was just a mere university student. Some quarter of a century later, with Gibson's Passion of the Christ causing a tempest around the world, the Oscar-winning director agreed to get back together with Paul for one of the very few print interviews he agreed to, and his only non-US one-on-one. In this candid chat, Gibson discuses anti-Semitism, Jesus and the re-birth of his own Catholicism.

Mel Gibson was in the midst of autographing a collection of what he describes as 'picture books.' "Here take one", he says, unconcerned that our ten minute interview has been extended. Relaxed and in a cheerful mood, Gibson is fully aware that what began "as this tiny low-budget film" has segued into a veritable storm of controversy. Not one to generally shy away from the press, on this occasion, the Oscar-winning director and Hollywood star is not availing himself to the general press here, with the exception of some high-profile television and a few major print outlets. Quite frankly, he says, the film doesn't need it. "I don't like doing press and never have. You put up with it and if you need to do it to help something, then ok, you help make an awareness. But this doesn't NEED it, because it's got its own kind of life, so I don't have to do as much." Gibson says that doing little publicity is a good thing "because I'm an idiot when I open my mouth. I might as well shut up and go away." The director says it's therefore better to be prudent. "Besides, once you go out there, you end up engaging in the nasty kind of editorial name-calling, which I didn't want to do, because that's what this isn't about."

Gibson also insists that his reluctance to speak out has little to do with the conflagration of debate that has plagued The Passion of the Christ, from the outset. Gibson's problem, in adapting various Gospel and Biblical sources, was to draw a fine line between Biblical authenticity and personal belief. The film is a clearly a fusion of all of these elements, and Gibson is unapologetic but understands why his film has generated such ferocious debate. "Whenever you delve into politics, religion or spirituality, you're gonna touch some nerves, because not everyone's alike, and so I expected a LITTLE disturbance. It's gone beyond what I imagined it would," Gibson says, waving his arms about with a despaired expression on his face. "I thought we'd just get out there and preach to a few Christians, and maybe you'll make your investment back." Mel says he is astounded by the media response and widespread criticisms. "I honestly did NOT see the furore of this whole thing which is like a firestorm. Every time you open the newspaper it's a new thing, even the sports pages, so the awareness is through the roof. It had a lot of opposition even before we finished filming, with cannonballs flying over the bows, so it was prejudged and condemned and I just tried to stay out of that."

That includes the preposterous notion that both he and the movie are anti-Semitic. Gibson admits that all of the refuelled anti-Semitic discussion occasionally makes him feel despondent. "It's disappointing, because it's a little bit of a low blow. I heard a story once where Steven Spielberg was accused of anti-Semitism because he bought the rights to this book on Charles Lindbergh, which makes me think it's very loosely slapped around. Then the really funny thing was, this mantra about anti-Semitism keeps coming up and if anything gets said often enough it slowly becomes amalgamated into so many accepted truths, which is too bad." For Gibson, the anti-Semitic allegations have been part of this ongoing media campaign against the film. "Throughout the past year you'd pick up the newspaper and there'd be something or other, so it's given me a daily opportunity to practice tolerance", he says, smilingly. Since tolerance is a theme of the film - and of Catholicism- he refers to a scene in The Passion of the Christ which deftly sums up his feelings towards the animosity levelled at the movie, a scene he says, that wasn't there in the original script, from the Gospel's Luke. "It was that scene where he's on the Mount, saying that you have to love everybody including your enemies because if you just like people who like you, what good is that? There's no trial or sacrifice in that, so I put that in specifically because of my own experiences," Gibson admits.

Some of those experiences, Gibson says reflectively, were what brought him back to his own Catholicism. His devoutness and return to a renewed sense of spirituality came about around 12 years ago, during what he likes to call "a dark night of the soul", which he says is not uncommon for most of us. "Somewhere along the line you're going to hit the wall," Gibson explains. For him, it was at around age 34. "I realised then that I was completely and utterly spiritually bankrupt and there's a lot of misery in that." Gibson won't reveal specifically why his particular crisis of spirituality occurred when it did, though it wasn't necessarily anything to do with the film industry. "You don't have to be spiritually bankrupt because you're dealing with this industry, but it helps", he adds laughingly. "What makes one spiritually bankrupt is a lack of maintenance," he explains. He didn't start out that way, he adds, "having been a pretty happy-go-lucky kid. Eventually you ask yourself: What is this all about? Is it some kind of joke? Why am I tortured here like this, so it's like: I want to get out! At the same time, I don't like it here yet too scared to get out. You're paralysed in this middle, no-man's land of agony. It's that Hamlet question of: will I check out or will I stay" he admits. "At that point you really have to really begin to ask yourself some serious questions and to change things if you want some answers and any kind of peace at all." So at a low point in his life, Gibson recalls taking a hard look within to try and make an ATTEMPT at least to investigate his own Catholicism "because I didn't practice very well or execute what I professed to believe."

Why exactly Gibson turned his back on religion, was in part due to the kinds of temptations put in his way, as Hollywood adulation and stardom came knocking on his door. Gibson was already 31 at the time of the first Lethal Weapon, made 8 years after Australia embraced him as the young Mad Max. By the time he got to Hollywood, Gibson was certainly intoxicated by what he discovered over the rainbow. "I embraced the secularism of this industry and the peace that went with it", Gibson admits. "It was very seductive with a lot of things on offer, but no matter the excesses, the luxuries, it's just not enough and doesn't fill the void." So at the height of his international success, Gibson recalls, "I just got to that place where I questioned what it's all about. It was like turning into something like a circular torture-fest, just going round and round, which became an attempt by me to change the course of things, put a stop to it and take another route, find some answers and heal my wounds, because life is a scarring experience, as you know," he says, half-smilingly.

Out of this need to fill a spiritual void, Gibson turned to the Bible and the Gospels, and ultimately a need to re-tell one of the greatest passion plays in the history of Mankind. Thus The Passion of the Christ was born, and became an obsession for over a decade. Gibson doesn't respond directly when asked if the experience of the film finally filled that dark void. "Put it this way: I'm more fulfilled now than I was," adding that his remains a spiritual evolution. "I'm still really venal and have all the same flaws that I had as when I started. It's a long process, I'm just a work-in-progress and that's all there is too it. I may be flawed beyond belief, but I think I have a couple of clues as to what NOT to do anyway, because it's easy to grab at the nearest apparent solution."

For Gibson, his Passion of the Christ was at least a partial solution to his own sense of unfulfillment, and says the story of Jesus of Nazareth has something pertinent to say to a largely secular movie-going audience. "I think what I've attempted to do with the film is make it realistic and human. I think the first things that hit you are the human aspects of the story. What we all relate to is a human experience, because that's what we are, animals with a spirit. I think most people have a sense that they're something beyond all this," he says.

As for Mel, having put so much of himself in this Passion, one can only wonder, where he can go from this experience, as a filmmaker. "There are other things you can do, though they won't be as intense or as controversial as this, thank God," he adds with a grin. When his Passion of the Christ is finally behind him, he still longs to be behind the cameras. "I love the storytelling process of directing, and I think I know how to do it. My school was George Miller and Peter Weir, and I just sucked it up like a sponge."

As for his future as an actor, Gibson, who hid behind make up and a character in The Singing Detective, longs to escape the Mel Gibson persona, whatever that might be. "I think I'm tired of it as is everybody else. My Utopian ideal would be anonymity," but laughingly concedes that such obscurity "might happen in Peking because we all look alike to them." As for future acting gigs, he doesn't seem enthused on that front, "though there's always some bus you can catch, but it's not as exciting for me." He laughs when asked how much money he still gets offered for a new Lethal Weapon. "Ah, good question. I'm too old and I can't deal with the action stuff anymore." That also tends to rule out the much delayed Mad Max 4. "It's getting to the point where they'll start calling it Fat Max," but hopes, at the very least, to work again with Weir and Miller. "Those guys are masters so of course I'd love to work with them again. The trouble is, will they want me?"

As Gibson prepares to end his day of book-signings and the odd interview, he wistfully concludes, in this Beverly Hills hotel suite, that talking about those early days makes him miss his adopted country. "I have very fond memories of Australia but I do sneak back in every now and then without anybody knowing. I enjoy staying under the wire and just try to exist. I'll be back soon."

[MaryFromMichigan]

You know the rule about Ann Coulter posts, don't you?

Well, I think we ladies should benefit from a similar rule for Mel Gibson posts!

I'll be right back....

[Antoninus]

I just can't figure out how the monk got airborne. There's no ramp.

It's all about getting lift by jamming the tail of the board onto the ground with the back foot while jumping at the same time. I used to be able to do it way back when...

[MaryFromMichigan]

[ultima ratio]

This is disingenuous. It's the Vatican that makes the complete break, talking about conforming to what they call "the conciliar Church"--meaning the Church of Vatican II. It's also the Vatican that suffers from amnesia, never referring to preconciliar popes or councils or documents, rejecting its own history by apologizing excessively for it. It is the Vatican that talks about a "New Advent" and "Second Pentecost" and has attempted to obliterate the Church's own past, even fabricating its own new liturgy. Don't blame traditionalists for any of the present nonsense--blame the regime in Rome which has been aggressively hostile to Tradition now for four decades.

[Maximilian]

getting more and more like George Carlin's part in the movie Dogma

I wouldn't watch the movie "Dogma" under pain of death, but I did hear about George Carlin's bit and it sounded hilarious: the bishop's new advertising campaign for the diocese: "Buddy Christ" with 2 thumbs up -- no more of that "downer" crucifixion business.

[GOP_Thug_Mom]

Hey, Max. I appreciate your pings. that second picture is a total nightmare. But I don't think it's fair to use the term "Vatican II Catholics" to describe those responsible for that ridiculous sideshow. JMHO

[Maximilian]

Your slur on "Vatican II Catholics", which improperly implies the existence of a new Church since Vatican II, is unwarranted and unfair.

Compare the pictures for yourself. Do these represent the same Church? It looks like a different one to me. And guess who agrees with me? All of the liberals who are running our dioceses and our Vatican hierarchy. They claim that there is such a thing as a "Vatican II Church." They are only to eager to denounce anything that smells of the "pre-conciliar Church." So apparently you are alone in believing that they aren't different.

[Smocker]

Implies?

It did not imply anything, it was a clear statement of fact, Is there a defense for picture 2?

[Smocker]

NOt to mention the fact every time a neo catholic speaks about the Traditionalists they call them, pre Vatican II Catholics. Now, what is that supposed to mean, if not, that they themselves consider the pre and post Vatican II eras to be 2 different churches.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

Is that what that looks like - a Franciscan Friar skateboarding in mid-air over top of clergymen? What would be the point of something like that?

[GOP_Thug_Mom]

Just curious--who are you following? And who do you trust?

Your attitude is too similar to every other Protestant who leaves the Church. Your bitter rantings do Tradionalists no good at all. Prayer and sacrifice are what Our Lady calls for on our behalf. Then trust Him to take care of His Church.

[Maximilian]

I don't think it's fair to use the term "Vatican II Catholics" to describe those responsible for that ridiculous sideshow.

I appreciate your effort to take the most charitable possible approach. However, you should be aware that this is most conservative possible group of "Vatican II Catholics" -- these are not some whacked out liberals. This friar belongs to Fr. Groschel's group. These are the ones who are totally loyal to "JPII, we love you!" These are the stars of EWTN. These are the leaders of the Youth Renew movement. These are the "adherents to the magisterium."

The stuff you get from the liberals is even worse. This after all, is just a silly stunt. If it were liberals, they would be doing this a part of Mass. If you can have "liturgical dancing," why not "liturgical skateboarding"?

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

During my professional involvement with Catholic education (and, indeed, during my father's career), there was a great deal of effort to make sure there was never anything goofy or unsound about the representations of Catholicism.
My question: So what happened? What happened in American Catholic culture which led to this season of silliness?
If it wasn't Vatican II, what was it? How did we ever get to clown Catholicism or sock puppet Catholicism?

[Diago]

Max, here are some helpful hints from the Diocese of Cleveland. We may all want to reflect upon these as the release of "The Passion" nears:

Dos and Don'ts When Teaching or Preaching About Jesus' Ministry

Don'ts	Do's
Messianic Expectations
speak of a single expectation	indicate that there were many ideas about messiah(s)
say that the prophets predicted a messiah to come	say that some of the prophets looked for the Day of the Lord when justice and peace would prevail.
Jesus as a Jew
speak about Jesus as if he were not Jewish	stress that as a Jewish child, Jesus was inspired to love Yhwh
claim that the "love command" or calling God "Abba" were unique to Jesus	say that other preachers also called God "Abba" and combined Dt 6:4 and Lev 19:18
Jesus and Jewish Contemporaries
portray first-century Judaism as legalistic, joyless, burdensome, or heartless	describe first-century as a dynamic exchange among many ideas
contrast Old Testament "justice" with New Testament "love"	speak of Jesus as rooted in the Hebrew experience of God as loving, just, and merciful
imply that there were universal norms for purity, kosher customs, or Sabbath observance	say that these topics were widely debated by first-century Jews, including Jesus
The Pharisees
describe them as hypocrites, legalists, or self-righteous	describe them as creatively seeking to bring Temple holiness to everyday life
portray them monolithically	portray them as having various "schools" of thought
describe them only as Jesus' foes	state that they were closest to Jesus in many ways
involve them with the crucifixion	distance them from the crucifixion
Jesus' Crucifixion
attribute to the Jewish people or unspecified "leaders"	ascribe to Roman officials and Jewish collaborators such as Caiaphas
discuss blasphemy as claiming to be divine	discuss blasphemy as being arrogantly presumptuous
describe a formal Sanhedrin "trial"	describe a hearing before Caiaphas and cronies
portray Pilate as seeking Jesus' release or crowds demanding Jesus' death	discuss that Caiaphas was appointed by Pilate, that Pilate was eventually removed as prefect for cruelty, and that Jesus was popular with the people at large (as seen by his clandestine arrest)
attribute Jesus' death to non-political "religious" motives	link Jesus' death with the politically charged Passover season, Jesus' Kingdom preaching, and Jesus' criticisms of the Temple leaders.
employ the Gospel passion narratives in a simplistic, uncritical manner	be aware of the apologetic and polemical forces that helped shape the Gospel passion narratives

Philip A. Cunningham

"What We Teach Our Children: Misconceptions in Jewish and Catholic Classrooms" Over the past 15 years, the Jewish-Catholic Colloquium has gathered to promote respect and enhance knowledge of both religions. In addition to the Colloquium, educators and catechetical leaders gathered on March 19th to discuss "What We Teach Our Children: Misconceptions in Jewish and Catholic Classrooms". The event was co-sponsored by the Office of Catechetical Services, the Anti-Defamation League and Interfaith Commission and was designed to help eliminate prejudices and misconceptions that may unintentionally be taught about each other in respective classrooms. Guest speakers included Dr. Philip Cunningham, Executive Director, Center for Christian-Jewish Learning at Boston College, and Dr. Eugene Korn, Director of Interfaith Affairs for the Anti-Defamation League. Dr. Cunningham has worked extensively with enriching the relationships between Christian and Jews and has many resources available on the Center for Christian-Jewish Learning website. Specifically, he shared the Ten New Christian Convictions About Jews and Judaism (.pdf) and Do's and Don't When Teaching or Preaching About Jesus' Ministry.  Dr. Korn is currently the Director of Interfaith Affairs at the Anti-Defamation League.  He is an Adjunct Professor in the Christian-Jewish Department at Seton Hall University in NJ.  This winter he was ordained a rabbi after studying many years in Israel.  He writes and lectures widely in the US and Israel on Christian-Jewish relations. Dr. Cunningham and Rabbi Korn gave the educators present an understanding of the new Christian convictions about Jews and Judaism that have been recently agreed upon by the major Christian churches.  They stressed that Jews and Christians are spiritual allies and we need to respect the gap between the Catholics and the Jews.  There has been much progress made in recent years along this line.  Dr. Cunningham explained that Jews today remain in a covenantal relationship with God.  In the past some of our Christian tradition and biblical text have contributed to historical anti-Semitism.  These texts need to be properly understood in order to avoid this prejudice.   [Return to Newest News]

| Secretariat for Education | Welcome | Mission | Newest News | Office of Catholic Education |

| Office of Catechetical Services | Newman Catholic Campus Ministry | Contact Us | Search |

Secretariat for Education - Catholic Diocese of Cleveland
c2003
Last Update:04/17/03
Contact the webmaster.

2 posted on 04/24/2003 4:26:54 PM EDT by Diago

[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

[Maximilian]

Dos and Don'ts When Teaching or Preaching About Jesus' Ministry

Unbelievable -- just when you think they can't astound you any more. This is nothing but apostasy. If only the diocese of Cleveland could have been around in Jesus' time to remind him not to call the pharisees, "Hypocrites, vipers, white-washed sepulchres." This is a denial of the entire meaning of the Gospel, since these people claim there was never a "prediction of a messiah to come."

Archbishop Lefebvre wrote an article back in 1974 (that caused his original suspension) called, "Must one become a protestant in order to remain a member of the Catholic Church?" The diocese of Cleveland has no difficulty answering "Yes."

[Diago]

"Must one become a protestant in order to remain a member of the Catholic Church?"

Soon, at least in the Diocese of Cleveland, the question will be "Must one become a pagan in order to remain a member of the Catholic Church?"

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

"Must one become a pagan in order to remain a member of the Catholic Church?" 36 posted on 02/16/2004 1:32:20 PM PST by Diago

This would be funny, if it were not so true.

[Unam Sanctam]

I have never in my years as a Catholic seen anything remotely similar to the scene in your second photo. It certainly does not represent my experience with the Catholic Church. It must be very exceptional to see skateboarding monks, as I have never seen that, and I have been to a large number of Catholic churches in many parts of the world. As for clerics and religious having recreation. I seem to recall a photograph from the 1940s or 1950s of a priest in full cassock playing soccer with orphan kids. I don't see how that is any different from your picture. The Catholic Church is the same Body of Christ, before and after Vatican II. Your attempt to say that the Church is a new Church after Vatican II is modernist heresy. Sacred Tradition cannot be changed. Consequently, you are simply producing one photograph, claiming that it represents what you call a "Vatican II Church". Your Vatican II Church is not what I know the Catholic Church to be. It is merely a straw man caricature created by schismatic propagandists who want to justify their unjustified rebellion against the legitimate authority of the Pope.

[Unam Sanctam]

Thanks for confirming your schismatic views. You admit that you view the Catholic Church as a different Church a "new" Church of Vatican II. The Catholic Church and the Pope make no such claim. Thus you confirm that you are outside the visible Catholic Church that has been entrusted to the apostles and their successors.

[Apple Pan Dowdy]

I just got here.

Lets don't let this thread turn into a fight about catholic vs. protestant! Lets have more of those cute photos of Mel!